RE: [ga] Consensus... Definition?

[admin@consumer.net (admin)]

OK.  Sounds good....

So when are going to get rid of the current ICANN staff so this process can
begin?

Russ Smith




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ga@dnso.org [mailto:owner-ga@dnso.org]On Behalf Of Gomes,
Chuck
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 8:14 AM
To: 'Roeland Meyer'; 'Sotiris Sotiropoulos'; ga
Subject: RE: [ga] Consensus... Definition?


A '2/3 majority vote of participants' in my opinion is an extremely weak
definition of consensus.  It could serve as a guide during efforts to
achieve consensus in the same way that a straw poll would.  It seems to me
that votes or straw polls are good means of quantifying the degree of
agreement/disagreement among 'participants' and that in turn can be used as
a step forward.  It would still be important though to try to modify
proposals in an effort to try to reach a solution that better satisfies the
1/3 opposed while still being acceptable to the 2/3 in favor.  And possibly
more importantly, the issue of representativeness of the overall Internet
community that is impacted by the issue at stake needs to be dealt with.
Consensus of some small subset of the affected community should never be
generalized to mean consensus of the larger community.  At a bare minimum
there should be a documented outreach to the broader community and
documented results of that outreach.  If in the end, the outreach efforts
are deemed to be reasonable and members of the broader community are
non-responsive, then it may be acceptable to conclude that they are not
interested and move forward with a consensus based on those who are
interested.

The problem with the process I am talking about is that is a very difficult
process.  It takes lots of time and effort. Most of us want a simple formula
and I contend that there is not a simple formula.  I firmly believe that the
complexity and difficulty of the consensus process is a fact of life if we
truly want a bottoms-up consensus process.  Anything less rigorous will be a
sham.

Finally, one of the underlying assumptions that seems to be prevalent is
that we should always be able to come to a consensus position.  It is not
only possible but also reasonable that on many issues it will not be
possible to reach a community consensus.  That is perfectly okay.  In those
cases we should simply let market forces work as freely as possible and
allow diversity so that consumers can choose what best meets their needs and
interests.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: Roeland Meyer [mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 4:05 PM
To: 'Sotiris Sotiropoulos'; ga
Subject: RE: [ga] Consensus... Definition?


I might point out that such a soft definition of consensus carries very
little weight in congress.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos [mailto:sotiris@hermesnetwork.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:54 PM
> To: ga
> Subject: [ga] Consensus... Definition?
>
>
> Roberto,
>
> Forgive me for saying so, but your call for a definition of
> "consensus" is
> IMHO some kind of diversionary tactic.  Why, and to what
> end...?  In its last
> published consensus-based document the WG-Review suggested
> the definition of
> "consensus" as a 2/3 majority of vote participants.  Did you
> not read it?
> Must we have the same discussion all over again?  On the
> other hand, we have
> the very interesting declaration of what "consensus" means in
> ICANN terms:
>
> >From a July 8, 1999, ICANN correspondence to The Honorable
> Thomas J. Bliley,
> Jr. Chairman of The House Committee on Commerce, from Esther
> Dyson on behalf
> of ICANN:
>
> "Because there were at the time of ICANN's formation and
> remain today critics
> of either its bylaws or particular actions taken since its
> creation, it is
> useful to define what we mean when
> we use the word "consensus." It obviously does not mean
> "unanimous," nor is it
> intended to
> reflect some precise counting of heads pro or con on a
> particular subject,
> since in this
> environment that is simply not possible. What it does mean is
> that, on any
> particular issue,
> proposed policies are generated from public input and
> published to the world
> at large, comments
> are received and publicly discussed, and an attempt is made,
> from the entirety
> of that process, to articulate the consensus position as best
> it can be
> perceived.
>
> "Obviously, to the extent any individual or group undertakes
> to articulate a
> consensus of
> the overall community, its work is useful only to the extent
> it accurately
> reflects the consensus. ICANN is no exception to this rule.
> Unfortunately,
> there is no litmus test that can objectively render a
> judgment as to whether
> this standard has been met in any particular
> situation. Perhaps the best test is whether the community at large is
> comfortable with the
> process and the results, and the best gauge of that is
> probably the level of
> continuing participation in the process, and voluntary
> compliance with the
> policies produced by that process. "This is, necessarily, a
> more ambiguous
> standard than counting votes or some other
> objectively measurable criteria, and it inevitably means less
> efficient, more
> messy, less linear
> movement, as the perceived community consensus shifts and
> adapts to change, or
> as perceptions
> of that consensus themselves are refined or change. Such a
> process is easily
> subject to criticism and attack by those not satisfied with
> the process or the
> results; after all,
> in the absence of some objective determination, it is impossible to
> definitively refute claims that the consensus has been
> misread, and loud noise
> can sometimes be mistaken for broad support for any
> proposition advanced.
>
> "Certainly there are those who do not accept that particular
> ICANN policies or
> decisions to
> date accurately reflect the community consensus, and there
> are some who are
> not comfortable
> with the process that has been employed to determine the
> community consensus.
> No doubt
> reasonable people can differ on both policy and process, and
> certainly there
> are many opinions
> about practically everything on which ICANN has acted. Still,
> it appears that
> the process has
> actually worked remarkably well considering the difficulty of
> the task, as
> measured by the fact that most of the global Internet
> communities continue to
> participate in this consensus development process.'
>
> --
> So what's the deal with this call for "consensus" definition
> Roberto?  How
> about a domain name definition instead?  It would go a lot
> further in cleaning
> up the mess created by the ambiguous wordslingers who crafted
> the entire
> notion of web-policy by fiat ably branded with the obscure
> term: "consensus".
> This whole topic stinks!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> --
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