RE: [ga] Consensus & Names Council Task Forces

[Roeland Meyer <rmeyer@mhsc.com>]

|> From: McMeikan, Andrew [mailto:McMeikanA@logica.com]
|> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:50 AM
|> 
|> Is not a person a legal entity?  After all in the end 
|> someone has to be held to account regardless of how 
|> you wrap it in legalities.

Yes, a person is a legal entity. But, a person is not the organization
that's collecting the money. It's largely a trust issue.

|> for the IC fund, that is 100% controlled by me and any 
|> mismanagement would be blamed on me, so far half of 
|> whats in there is from me the other half is from an 
|> outside donation.  This fund is for individualls 
|> getting a voice and establishment of an individuals 
|> constituency.  Until a 'consensus' of what that is and 
|> what the rules governing its use is then it rests with me.

What assurance do I have that what you just said is going to be the way it
happens?

|> I see know problem in someone setting up an account for the 
|> ga and running it, just declare a position of tresurer, elect 
|> someone who is prepared to take that responsibility and trust.

IANAL, but that might be misconstrued as a fraud. You have no legal right
nor permission to collect funds for the ICANN/DNSO/GA unless you have some
sort of delegation instrument, signed by the ICANN powers-that-be. You would
have, at that point, mis-represented yourself. That's one of the elements of
fraud. You might be making yourself vulnerable to all sorts of liabilities.
Especially if the ICANN disavows you.

|> Even draw up rules on use. Any extra legal fiction of a 
|> 'trust' account or an incorporated body does not stop
|> someone from nicking the loot, might even make it easier, 
|> certainly adds extra cost.

A registered legal entity is a lot easier to find then a free-ranging
individual. Governments make sure of that so that they can collect their
taxes.

|> People who want to spend a fortune establishing complicated 
|> setups to do a simple thing usually do so because they don't 
|> want to be held to account and want a 'system' to blame.  or 
|> to buy a plush leather seat to sit in while writting cheques.

I don't have time or patience to explain to you how wrong you are. If it was
truely that simple, we'd have fixed all these problems a long time ago. In
fact, KISS was IANA's first attempt, then we had the IAHC and it went
downhill from there. Also, before the ICANN, the ORSC existed.

|> My neck is only on the line so far to the point of a couple 
|> of pizzas worth, but the principle still applies 
|> http://www.individual-domain.org or something like it, 
|> is going to need every scrap of money it can get.  If
|> someone asks me for the funds I hold and its use betters 
|> individuals voices, then it gets used, I go with whatever 
|> the consensus is.  The buck stops with me!  

Therein lays the heart of the problem, who determines consensus and would
anyone else, looking at the same evidence, agree? If the answer to the
latter is, or might be, "no" then you have a serious problem. That's why
most democracies run on a voting system, rather then a consensus system.

|> If anyone cares to draw up rules that shold bind its 
|> use and those rules get wide acceptance then those rules 
|> will govern its use.  

|> This all has to be done regardless of if its someones pocket, 
|> personal account or a corporate account.  But someone still 
|> has to stick their neck out and take responsibility.

|> Roland if you have doubts about what it is going to be used 
|> for, then help prepare a 'funds use' document.  Even if you 
|> make a pledge of $x for y-purpose at least people know that 
|> something can be possible because the funds will be there. 
|> http://www.e-gold.com/pub-bal.asp?pubid=313216 shows
|> how much can be in the mail today if someone feels a pizza 
|> is vital to getting the job done ;)

Please understand, I was not questioning you, I was merely pointing out the
problems with the method. The account is actually quite interesting. I am
very much interested in all of the permutations of eCommerce. It's what I
do.

|> I also have more money personally, but since I spend on 
|> things in my life that amount goes up and down, what is 
|> in the IC fund, while under my control is not for my 
|> personal benifit.
|> 
|> Maybe no one will give much until lots of documents and 
|> organisations and elected purse bearers exist, but if 
|> someone does have a couple of bucks to set aside then at 
|> least there is a way to do so.  Perhaps you can do better,
|> certainly with three years of questing over this you must 
|> have some pretty good ideas, maybe even thought about 
|> establishing a trust yourself?  If you have something 
|> better and publicly accept the task, I see no reason not to
|> send it to you (does anyone object?).

I have many ideas. However, none of them are compatible with paying the
rent. I have a business to run too. Some of them are even incompatible with
the current power regime. BTW, please forgive me if I sounded a bit harsh,
for the past few weeks, I've been living inside MS-Excel2K, doing business
models and plans. There is not a lot of forgiveness there.

|> Help me out here, I just want to see some progress.

On that, we are in agreement.

--
R O E L A N D  M J  M E Y E R
Managing Director
Morgan Hill Software Company
tel: +1 925 373 3954
cel: +1 925 352 3615
fax: +1 925 373 9781 
http://www.mhsc.com

|> -----Original Message-----
|> From: Roeland Meyer [mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com]
|> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:15 PM
|> To: 'McMeikan, Andrew'; 'Joop Teernstra'; DannyYounger@cs.com
|> Cc: ga@dnso.org
|> Subject: RE: [ga] Consensus & Names Council Task Forces
|> 
|> 
|> This might even work if;
|> 1 There was a legal entity to trak this to
|> 2 The bank (preferably trust) account was tracable to this 
|> legal entity
|> 3 we could review the bylaws of this legal entity
|> 
|> Otherwise, it's someone's personal account for all we know. 
|> How do we know
|> that the mony's getting to where we think it's going, for 
|> the uses intended?
|> 
|> For three years I've asked this question from every nacent 
|> organization. I
|> made an issue of it with the IDNO and I've recently 
|> mentioned it to the TLDA
|> (the TLDA has such account). The TLDA is much more likely to get my
|> financial support than some unknown account that isn't tracable to an
|> organization, that guarantees use of funds.
|> 
|> |> -----Original Message-----
|> |> From: McMeikan, Andrew [mailto:McMeikanA@logica.com]
|> |> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 9:45 PM
|> |> To: 'Joop Teernstra'; DannyYounger@cs.com
|> |> Cc: ga@dnso.org
|> |> Subject: RE: [ga] Consensus & Names Council Task Forces
|> |> 
|> |> 
|> |> If any individual feels that they wish to contribute or put 
|> |> some money in
|> |> 'the hat' to be used by an Individuals Constituancy, here is 
|> |> where the hat
|> |> is
|> |> http://www.e-gold.com/pub-bal.asp?pubid=313216
|> |> 
|> |> to put your bit in http://two-cents-worth.com/?313216&EG
|> |> 
|> |> If your dying to show support and for whatever reason don't 
|> |> use e-gold then
|> |> paypal to me at andrewm@engineer.com and once cleared I will 
|> |> put it in
|> |> (minus paypals cut).
|> |> 
|> |> While I don't think that Individuals should have to cough up 
|> |> lots of money
|> |> to have a voice, I think that having a slush fund to get 
|> |> that voice heard
|> |> better is a good idea.
|> |> 
|> |> I think that a similar fund for the GA should exist, but 
|> |> thats better left
|> |> to someone else as I have a very strong individualistic bias ;)
|> |> 
|> |> 	cya,	Andrew...
|> 
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