WHOIS TASK FORCE
Teleconference
November 25, 2002
Attendees:
Marilyn Cade - Co-Chair
Antonio Harris – Co-Chair
Thomas Roessler – GA
Abel Wisman – GA
Kristy McKee – GA
Laurence Djolakian – IPC – Names Council
Steve Metalitz - IPC
Francis Coleman_ GNR Registry
Karen Elizaga – GNR Registry
Ken Stubbs – Registrars
Glen de Saint Géry
DNSO Secretariat
Ram Mohan absent, no response
OPERATOR:
Is – Miss Marilyn Cade is the host for the call. The conference ID is B
as in boy, M as in Mary, C as in Charles 7031.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Hello, Marilyn. You are not going to sing (ph).
OPERATOR:
Pardon me, this is the operator, recording is being added to your call.
MARILYN CADE:
Thank you.
OPERATOR:
OK.
GLEN (ph):
Yes, Marilyn, I am on.
CADE: Hi
Glen (ph).
GLEN (ph):
Hi.
CADE: … nice note.
GLEN (ph):
We’ve got to Thomas (ph), Kristy (ph), yourself and Laurence (ph)
STEVE METALITZ:
Hi, Steve ph).
GLEN (ph):
Laurence (ph) you were able to make it.
Steve (ph), thank you.
KEN STUBBS (ph):
Ken Stubbs (ph).
GLEN (ph):
Thank you, Ken (ph).
STUBBS (ph):
Do we have a lot of static on the line, or is it me – should I dial in
again?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I don’t think it is static on the line,
thank you.
CADE:
It just came on the last few clicks.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I don’t think it will be – part of my line,
so …
STUBBS (ph):
I think it’s me. I think I am
going to try dialing back in again anyway, just to make sure it isn’t me.
KAREN (ph):
Hi, guys. It’s
Karen (ph).
GLEN (ph):
Hi Karen (ph).
KAREN (ph):
Hi.
STUBBS (ph):
Sorry, Marilyn, what did you say?
CADE:
Ram (ph) – and I haven’t heard any response from Ram (ph) in any of my
e-mails to him. You know, and I don’t-
and I don’t hear him now either.
STUBBS (ph):
This is Ken (ph), I just came back into the call.
CADE:
Great. I think that’s – I think
that’s better Ken (ph). I thought it
was you or me – the static seems to be a bit improved. Unless, unless – I guess I should say …
STUBBS (ph):
I don’t know whether you’ve changed phones in the last week or two
Marilyn, but for some reason your voice over the last two conference calls has
been very muted and very – it’s not as crisp, it’s like there was a – somebody
needed to adjust the treble on a – hope you understand what I am saying?
CADE:
Yes.
STUBBS (ph):
Now I can hear you much better.
CADE:
And I thought I was just trying to speak (ph) quieter.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: You better shout above the way (ph) it is
done (ph) to you.
GLEN (ph):
We are deaf!
CADE: I
have changed phones and have a new speaker headset…
STUBBS (ph):
Well I am sorry, but that does not mean – maybe it’s just me, but maybe
…
CADE:
No, no, I’ll try to do better.
It is a difference. It’s a
different phone and a different headset.
And I think it does make a difference.
OK, today’s agenda maybe, where’s the missing Ram Mohan (ph). But we’ll have to get past that, so why
don’t we try to do what we had before us and then if we want to go through
those sections and skip all through the operative (ph) sections very quickly
and identify where within the taskforce (ph), we have any perception, that we
don’t have consensus on a particular item, on the two recommendation sections,
and then, just try to clarify on Kristy’s (ph) section, that she is leading
on. It’ll be up for recommending, which
is further work. So, this was not a
consensus recommendation about what to do, but it’s a recommendation about
further work and then you could go through that. I am frustrated. I’ve,
unfortunately, gotten no response from Ram (ph) as to what’s going on in his
section and I don’t know if any of you have heard from him.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I have not.
STUBBS (ph):
Why don’t I see if I can track him down while you are there.
CADE:
That would be great.
STUBBS (ph):
OK, because I can raise him probably on ICQ.
CADE:
OK.
STUBBS (ph):
I’ll listen in, but I’ll try to track him down.
CADE: That would be great because we will have to figure out what we are going to say about that section, which is going to have to be very – very high level – even if we haven’t done anything signifICANNt on the output… so far. That would be great, Ken (ph). Should we go to – the section, first of all in order, so let’s go to Accountability (ph) if that’s OK with everyone. Glen (ph) are you – I don’t know where Karen(ph) is, because she had verified with me, she’d been on the call.
Glen(ph):
Marilyn?
(ph). Yes, had verified he
was going to be on this call?.
Glen (ph):
I don’t think he verified, no.
Do you want me to call him?
CADE:
Yes.
GLEN (ph):
I’ll do that.
CADE:
Thank you.
ABEL (ph):
Hello.
THOMAS (ph):
Hello Able.
ABEL (ph):
Hi Thomas (ph), how are you? Hi Kristy (ph).
KRISTY MCKEE (ph): Good morning.
ABEL (ph):
I am here, I was here, but you were muted.
THOMAS (ph) (?): We are in the middle of the agenda.
CADE:
Good, Abel (ph), welcome.
ABEL (ph):
Thank you Marilyn, how are you?
CADE:
Good, good. Let me go to Steve
(ph), if that’s OK?
METALITZ (ph):
Yes, on ‘accuracy’, I sent out the text on Friday that I think
summarized where we are, or at least, it incorporated various comments that had
been received and then I others – and some traffic today, some of which I am
just now trying to catch up on. But Ken
(ph) has raised two points, one having to do with 5-B and one having to do with
use of the term, “The liberally provided incorrect data.” This is the term from the registrar’s
advisory, it’s not an ICANN (ph) sent out.
I don’t think it’s a term from the contract. And I proposed some language on that, which I think Ken (ph)
found acceptable, which was basically to say that when we discuss what – how to
– what type of documentation would be acceptable or correctly used data that we
should also discuss when this scenario applies.
Other words whether – I don’t know that we’d
come up with a definition, but we may be able to at least come up with some
examples to guide registrars as to when it would appear that false data has
been deliberately provided. The second
issue that I think is still being discussed is 5-C – well actually it’s a – 5-C
has a provision which says we should – ICANN (ph) should work with registrars
to monitor the specific impact on a 15-day period, fifth day registrations in
particular from developing countries, subject to (INAUDIBLE) inquiries. And there’s been some back and forth about
whether something beyond that should be included here.
I can state my view, which is, that at this
point, we do not know because ICANN (ph) does not have statistics on it,
apparently. They don’t even know how
many registrations have ever been cancelled for failure to answer an accuracy
inquiry within 15 days. And so, I
think, if we can gain some more information on that – find out if 15-day period
that is been in place for three years, really is presenting a problem, then we
move on a basis of some data rather than just the basis of what we think might
be the case.
CADE:
Yes.
METALITZ (ph):
So I guess I would – our recommendation is that we would stick with the
5-C language, or maybe put in there a reference that we would need – try to
encourage ICANN (ph) to try to develop the data as to how many cancellations
are occurring in that scenario.
CADE:
Yes.
METALITZ (ph): Better that we not recommend a change in the registrar
accreditation agreement on that subject right now.
THOMAS (ph) (?): I have one question on this one.
The cond (ph) language from the RAA (ph) seems to say that when a
registrant gets a maturity inquiry, and doesn’t respond within 15 days, he is
in material breach of contract, and that this is – there can be a basis for
cancellation of the registration – of the registrant file. Is there any language, which can actually
generate obligation for registrars to really, strictly, stick with the 15 days,
or does this only mean after 15 days, the registrar can cancel the
registrations that are enforced.
STUBBS (ph):
Well Thomas (ph), can I respond to that, Marilyn?
CADE:
Sure, go ahead.
STUBBS (ph):
Yes, and please correct me if I am wrong, folks, but it would seem to me
that enforcement of the 15-day provision seems to be somewhat at the whim at
this point in time – can you hear me? Or, am I on you?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I can hear you all right …
ABEL (ph):
I can hear you.
STUBBS (ph):
OK, fine Abel (ph). Seems to be
the enforcement of the 15-day deletion penalty appears to be still at the whim
of the registrar, but based on the actions that ICANN (ph) took with Verisign
(ph) over those names, it would seem to me that ICANN (ph) more-or-less expects
the registrar to enforce the 15-day rule, and if they don’t, in the future,
there maybe sanctions against the registrars for, in fact, not enforcing that
rule. My concern, basically, is that –
it has to do with the concept of modifying the registrar accreditation
agreements. That’s going to be a rather
unusual process because it’s not been done before. And having them involved in negotiations for contracts with ICANN
(ph) in the past, I find that these things are better accomplished all in one
fell swoop, rather than going back again and trying to modify or amend the
registrar accreditation agreements again.
THOMAS (ph):
Ken (ph), I am sorry there, sorry, there but what accreditions (ph) …
METALITZ (ph):
I am sorry. I used the term ‘-
in one fell swoop,’ it would be better if it could all be done at one
time. If not, I am afraid what may
happen, is that, there maybe an over reluctance on ICANN’s (ph) part to modify
the registrar accreditation agreements until this information – until we can
get a better experience – summary on – these 15 days. So what I was trying to do was to see, if we couldn’t arrive at
something where we were comfortable with the wording that would allow some
flexibility in there, if it is determined that 15 days is not an adequate time
period, and that’s kind of how I feel about it.
My personal feeling, is that the registrars
will probably put up a bit of a stink about the 15 day rule and then somebody
will come along and say, “well, gee, it’s been that way for three years,” but,
really, it hasn’t been effectively enforced as far as we know. Now maybe somebody is going to be able to
pull some numbers out of a hat and make me a – make me wrong in this
issue. I’m just going to make sure that
if we do it, we could try to get it done all at one time and get it done the
right way.
STUBBS (ph) (?): You know, I understand
your concern Steve (ph), but, I am also concerned about the fact that, even if
we go into a brazen redemption situation after the 15 days, effectively, the
site is taken down. So, if somebody
loses the ability to have a presence on the internet because of the fact that
it wasn’t effectively communicated to them, to begin with, that can really hurt
people, especially, some of the small companies. And that’s what I am looking at.
I know you are looking at it from an abuse standpoint.
I am looking at it from the standpoint of the
majority of the registrants, who, if they make mistakes, are not intentionally
doing them in most cases, and even if they intentionally do them, they are not
intentionally doing them for the purposes, that, in my opinion, would be of
most concern to the intellectual property constituency. They may, in fact, be putting in inaccurate
information, because of the perception of spam, or even in the case of many
people privacy issues. So, that’s my
opinion. Thanks for hearing me out.
CADE:
OK. And let me – is there (ph)
on the call?
GLEN (ph):
Yes Marilyn, I am trying to get through to Tony(ph). He’s – I think got a voice mail on his cell
phone.
CADE:
OK. What about his phone office
number?
GLEN (ph):
I’ve tried the office – I have tried the office number and that’s just
got a voice mail on it too. I will try
call him a
CADE:
You know Glen (ph) (INAUDIBLE) …
GLEN (ph):
Yes, that’s right.
CADE:
OK, I guess you people have breakfasted …
GLEN
(ph): Sure. You are looking for breakfast at two?
CADE: Yes, don’t worry about that. I’ll just sit forth on this. Look Glen (ph) and I were just on the weak
Rattford (ph) call and the issue that, of course, they’re discussing is, what
to do after – whatever the time…
METALITZ (ph):
Marilyn, I can hardly understand you.
CADE:
All right, whatever the WHOIS taskforce is discussing the time – what to
do after the WHOIS task force(ph) recommend deletion. So, they are not by any means, getting involved in what we are
doing, but they are looking at deletion, generally, and what should happen once
we recommend that a name be deleted.
There is an assumption that redemption grace would apply. Well, redemption grace gives another 13
days, right?
STUBBS (ph) (?): But it – still, even during a redemption and grace period, the
purpose of the redemption and grace period was originally to protect against
inadvertent deletions, principally, because of a communication issue regarding
payment on renewals and so forth. It
still presumes – correct me if I am wrong please, redemption and grace still
presumes that the name will be taken down and will be removed from, you know,
the domain will grow dark during that 13-day period. And that’s what I am concerned about – and that is, we do not
effectively communicate with somebody and we take their name down – in the case
of redemption and grace, in most issues that I have seen there, there have been
continuing attempts at getting the registrant to renew the name. Any good registrar is going to start billing
in 60 days out minimum.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes.
STUBBS (ph) (?): And so, you have a different – I mean hypothetic way, I can look
you in the eye and say, “Marilyn, I have been trying to get you to pay your
bill for 60 days, dear. If you don’t
pay your bill, I am going to take you down and you are going to have to pay a reconnection
fee.” Why – but if I am coming out of
the blue with a notification to you that you’ve got to correct this data, and
if you don’t correct it in 15 days I am taking you down, you’re liable to turn
around and say to me, “Ken (ph), now wait a minute, I mean my administrative
contact is no longer with me. I didn’t
get the bill, I didn’t get the notification, you sent it to me in the mail and
I still haven’t gotten it.”
CADE:
Right.
STUBBS (ph):
You know, that’s what I am concerned about.
CADE:
Well, I think it’s fair to say that ICANN (ph) has not been enforcing
the 15-day up till now, and so, there is not standard information on the impact
of enforcing the 15 days regime (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I think – may I Marilyn?
CADE: Yes.
KEN STUBBS:
… I mean, we are talking about the 15-day period, but, is there any
description on what steps the registrar or registry is obliged to take, in
order to contact the owner of the domain.
I mean, we are just talking about sending mails and no e-mail, then, 15
days is ridiculous. We talking about
sending normal mail and we are talking air mail and snail mail, then we still
talking about a period that’s impossible.
I mean a mail from America, if it’s not going registered airmail then it
can easily take four weeks before it gets to Europe.
CADE:
Yes, can I – let me, let me …
KEN STUBBS:
Shouldn’t we, shouldn’t we be able to …
CADE:
Can I? Hold on – can I just get
us back in order for just another – thank you for your contribution. Can I just finish my statement, and then we
can take comments on my statement?
KEN STUBBS:
Yes, OK.
CADE:
And then I get who want to be in the queue, is that right?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes, sure.
KRISTY McKEE:
I’d like to be in the queue – Kristy(ph).
McKEE(ph):
I’d like to be in the queue, OK?
CADE:
OK. What I am trying to do is
help us get to where we have consensus within the group. Where we have documentation that supports
consensus and where we may not have consensus, because, that’s what we are
trying to do here. And here is my
assessment of this. Putting my finger
to the wind, reading what we’ve gotten so far, looking through the discussion
and hearing the questions that are raised within the taskforce, it seems to me
that the 15 day is not – that we don’t have enough input to know that if the 15
days is enforced, whether or not, there will be harm to the registrants
unfairly. We get – I don’t believe, no.
What we have, is experience from some of us who
try the same things internationally, and are familiar with the facts that
postal service varies significantly country to country, and depending on which
direction you are flying. If – since we
are – do know we are probably dealing with situations where e-mail is probably
one of the things that is in error. So,
the question that is on the table, is whether 15 days is adequate, and do we
actually have enough documentation to recommend, one way or the other, on 15
days.
My read of this is, we actually don’t have
factual information in hand that would document whether 15 days is enough or
not. We do have some questions about
whether an extension of some short, fixed period is needed, and that I believe
the taskforce saying, that redemption grace is not a substitution, one way or
the other. And, I just want to comment
on the last point first, because redemption grace is there for a different
reason, it does make the fact go bad (ph) and just (ph) what comments on
whether redemption grace is an option for a solution, if we need a
solution.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: My assessment on that …
THOMAS (ph):
May I ask about the question? Sorry for stepping in.
CADE: …
who else just joined us?
TONY HARRIS (ph): Just incase, Tony Harris (ph) is here. He arrived just 10 minutes.
CADE:
Hi Tony (ph), welcome. Yes,
Thomas (ph) please do ask about the question.
FRAN COLEMAN (ph): Also Fran Coleman (ph) from GNR (ph).
GLEN (ph):
Hey, Frank (ph).
CONNORS (ph):
Hey hello, how are you?
CADE:
Yes, I am fine.
THOMAS (ph):
Just to be sure if I understand you correctly, Marilyn, the correction
would redemption grade combined with rigid 15-day response period would be
sufficient, right?
CADE:
That’s not what I asked, but I am happy to have it attend …
THOMAS (ph):
I am trying, I am trying to understand what you are asking?
CADE:
Yes, that’s not what I asked but let me, let me ask it again. Redemption grade is a recommendation – the
need for redemption grace period is the recommendation of this taskforce, yes
or no.
STEVE METALITZ:
Yes. I
think it is. I mean, it’s in8A, it says
that the sanction other than cancellation of the main name, should be
considered and then it goes on to talk about redemption grace, it says, this is
also going to be discussed …
CADE:
So can I just take – can I just hear from anyone on the taskforce, is
there any disagreement that the taskforce, recommend the provision of
redemption grace period.
ABEL (ph) (?):
I have another question on this case.
Redemption grace period, which makes it look like (ph) it kicks in after
the registrar tells the registry to delete the main name?
CADE:
That’s right.
ABEL (ph) (?):
So the recommendation we are making right now is that, before any
redemption grace period would kick in, there should be an additional hold
period. Just like to be sure we are
clear about it.
CADE:
We promise to reflect…
ABEL (ph) (?):
We have the hold period, we’ve got the deletion, does the hold period
have to expire at some point, at which point the deletion will kick in and
refute (ph) the mechanism. But now we
have inquiry …
THOMAS (ph) (?): But what would happen during the hold period. Because I don’t understand what the
difference is, between the hold period and the redemption grace period.
ABEL (ph) (?):
The difference is, during the hold period, the registrar can easily can
get the main name back into his own, but with the redemption grace period would
have reporting requirements towards ICANN (ph) and all kinds of complications.
CADE:
The redemption grace period is not – I don’t believe it’s a direct
substitute for any – for this time period where the registrar is trying to
contact the registrant and find out what their will is. It does provide a – it’s a safety mechanism
and was designed as a safety mechanism.
It isn’t – and it also does make the site dark (ph).
METALITZ (ph):
Marilyn, can I get in the queue on that question?
CADE:
Yes, that’s what I wanted, I wanted to clarify whether or not we are
supporting a redemption grace period as a safety valve after the other
decisions first before we go into a discussion about the period during which
the registrant is given a chance to correct the data. And I heard from Steve (ph) that he believes that we are recommending
a redemption grace period as a safety – you don’t mind I am paraphrasing here,
it does provide a safety valve but everybody needs to understand it does not
have the same characteristics as being on hold at the registrar level. So do I – is there any other discussion
about redemption grade?
METALITZ (ph):
Yes, this is Steve (ph).
CADE:
OK. Good, OK.
METALITZ (ph):
Whether it’s a hold or redemption grace, the practical impact is that
the site goes dark, and I would – yes it is a safety valve, a safety net, but I
would suggest that if there were any data about what happens in these
situations, which there isn’t, that 99
percent of the legitimate cases would be resolved because once the site goes
dark there will quickly be contact between the registrant and the
registrar. A contact – excuse me
Marilyn, can I finish?
CADE: Sure.
METALITZ
(ph): Contact …
CADE: I
just want to ask you a question?
METALITZ (ph):
OK, well then – when I am done, you can ask a question. Contact that would have happened before
hand, if the accurate contact data had been submitted. So, I do think it ameliorates the problem
but, I also think that our basic problem is, as Marilyn has said, if we don’t
really have any data on how this will work – I think Ken (ph) is also right
when he said, that in fact, we don’t have rigid enforcement of the 15-day rule
and I think if we, if we encourage or try to get ICANN (ph) to collect the data
on what is happening in these situations, well the much better – we’ll be in a
much better position to make a meaningful recommendation after that data is got
(ph). Thank you.
CADE:
Let me just – let me just clarify the question I wanted to ask and then
let’s take comments unless – many sites that are registered actually are not
live.
METALITZ (ph):
Right.
CADE:
So there is no, there actually is no DNS (ph) associated with them and
in that case, the harm would be, to perhaps, losing a name but it wouldn’t
necessarily be direct harm to any commerce site, if it’s not actually
live. Now, some sites of course, are
registered for defensive (ph) reasons or because they need to point through …
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I am back.
CADE:
We didn’t realize – we knew that we lost someone but we weren’t sure who
it was. Welcome back.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I was in the queue, thank you Marilyn. We were just getting interesting (ph) …
CADE:
So, let me just make sure that what Steve (ph) laid out his view of
(INAUDIBLE) hold and that 15 days period now that’s in the RAA (ph) – the
question that is on the table from some of the taskforce participants is
whether that period needs to be revised.
I am – I just want to be sure, I am trying to get one item off the
table; regardless of how we resolve this question. There is support for application for redemption grace period, right?
METALITZ (ph):
I think that’s correct.
CADE:
OK. Steve.
METALITZ (ph):
Yes, that’s right.
CADE:
OK, let’s go to the main question then and that is: if should the 15
days be extended in any way – right now the recommendation in the paper – in
our recommendation is that ICANN (ph) should monitor the impact of 15
days. We would probably – we might if
we keep our recommendation, we might want to make a suggestion of how long they
should monitor it before assessing whether any change is needed. So when we go back to what about the 15
days, and I have several people in queue – we had Steve (ph), we had Kristy
(ph), we had Abel (ph), Thomas (ph) did you want to be in queue?
THOMAS (ph):
No, I think I am …
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes, take me in after Thomas (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: And me too, Marilyn, in the queue as well.
CADE:
OK.
HARRIS (ph):
We’ll be at the end Tony Harris (ph).
CADE:
OK.
STUBBS (ph):
Marilyn you are sounding discouraged dear.
CADE:
OK. Not totally (ph) put off at
all. Let’s start with – OK, I am
confused on who is first, I think its Kristy (ph).
MCKEE (ph):
All right, I’ll be first, thank you.
I wanted to add to 5-C, that I would like to see – this is Kristy McKee
(ph) by the way, everyone. I would like
to see in 5-C, a statement of concern; that the 15 days may not be sufficient
and just to, kind of, add it in again, so that people are very clear that we’re
not sure that it’s sufficient – and we are sure that we are recommending that
this be researched. The second point
here was – the answer to the second question about the redemption grace period,
and I do think the redemption grace period is an acceptable thing, after we
determine what to do first.
However, I would like – would like if we were
going to keep the 15 days to see us recommend a hold period beyond the 15 days
where the main name service is not removed.
So the site does not go dark, so that there are at least 30 days that
the site still stays live, while the registrar is trying to get a hold of
them. And I don’t know if we have
consensus on this, I just really liked the idea of going on hold, but I didn’t
understand it meant losing the site’s workability. I’d like to see a site standby for as long as possible. Thank you.
Thomas ROESSLER: I have a question to that.
CADE:
You have a clarification question to that or …
THOMAS ROESSLER: A clarification, Marilyn.
CADE:
Yes, go ahead.
THOMAS ROESSLER: I would like – just like to know, Kristy (ph), what would be the
difference between the kind of (INAUDIBLE) data that you are suggesting, and
the fully operational file? What would
differentiate us from really doing nothing?
MCKEE (ph):
Well nothing. It would just –
it’s just another way to – not really change the contract, but to keep – while
we are moving though this transitional stage and people are going to feel
secure having accurate data in the Who Is database. I am just – just a little bit more padding (ph) of what I am recommending
because, some of the registrars are not very easy to communicate with, and
we’ve got to take into account that some clients are also not very adept at
modifying their information, and I feel like – I agree with what Steve (ph) has
said, and I agree with what Ken (ph) has said, and I agree with what Thomas
(ph) has said, and yet I still have a big reservation from client base that
says I was to take off for 30 days to attend meetings, they would be in a bad
position if they were, you know, CEO only, around. And I just don’t think 15 days is enough, and I’d like to see us
try to do something to help alleviate the pressure.
THOMAS ROESSLER: Thank you for the clarification.
MCKEE:
Sure.
CADE:
OK, are you ready to move on?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes.
CADE:
OK. Steve (ph), were you, were
back in queue on this – at this point, can I go on to Abel (ph) and come back
to you?
METALITZ (ph):
Why don’t you go on?
CADE:
OK. Abel (ph). We lost him.
CADE:
OK. I have Thomas (ph) next and
then Ken (ph) …
THOMAS (ph):
Well I’ll make use of the compatibility mode (ph) to you for starting
the queue (ph)
CADE:
OK. Ken (ph)?
STUBBS (ph):
There are a couple of issues hear, Marilyn. First of all it was a comment that you made that was kind of
hoping that, may be, Karen (ph) would jump in.
But there was a comment made about being notified by the registry. Correct me if I am wrong, Karen (ph), but I
don’t believe that any of the existing registries at this point in time, who
have the authority, or frankly, would really want to get involved in
communicating directly with registrants on issues like that. Normally, it would be mandated back to the
registrar, and in fact, many of the registries would be severely sanctioned by
the registrars, if they attempted to do anything like that. Karen (ph), you’d go ahead respond if you
want.
KAREN (ph):
Wait, wait, and wait. If I said
registry, I was mistaken in what I said.
STUBBS (ph):
All right, I apologize.
CADE:
Thank you for the clarification.
And just to confirm what Ken (ph) said, we’ve had our hands slapped
many-a-times. We definitely need to
connect (ph) the registry.
STUBBS (ph):
Sure.
KAREN (ph):
Yes I want to re-second it. That
was an error on my part. That’s a
misstatement.
CADE:
All right.
STUBBS (ph):
That was the first thing. The
second thing is – and I – it’s a little easier for me, because I believe
Laurence (ph) is on, and there are couple of other people in Europe. I would like to put you, the Europeans into
an August scenario with something similar to what Kristy (ph) said before. I think you’d all be quite agreeable with
the fact that it would net be at all unusual for somebody in France, Spain or
Italy to consider taking a two to three week holiday in the summer. And, if that person was responsible for
dealing with those kinds of communications, we could have serious issues even
on an email. Let’s see, I’ll give you
an example, because I was representing one of my clients in an issue with a,
you know, French intellectual property law firm, and I had terrible problems in
communicating with anybody during the month of August at this law firm because
frankly everybody was out of the office.
It was impossible.
CADE:
Well OK, I think that’s – we are getting right into it here, Laurence
(ph) and then Thomas (ph), wait a minute, is Abel (ph) back?
ABEL (ph):
Yes. I am back again.
CADE:
OK, Abel (ph), can we go to you, because we missed you …
ABEL (ph):
Yes, that’s OK. Marilyn. I am not sure (INAUDIBLE) because I don’t
have any paperwork with me as I said early on.
Is there any statement made on the means of contacting the domain
owners, and if not, should we not instead of trying to change the RAA (ph) try
and make some sort of recommendation that a procedure is set up, which is
deemed to be correct contacting of the owner.
CADE:
Let me put that on the table and come back to it. In the past and recommendation about how to
notify – I don’t know if the registrar will think that was micromanaging. I think most of them are intent on keep the
customers. We can come back to this
thing after the questions. Again, that
to me Abel (ph) sells into the idea that – and I what is this – different times
for someone, choose please supply the required information in the 15 days. Since right now, we are asking indeed that
the registrar may be responding in 15 days, unless, they provide documentary
proof of the accuracy of the accepted data.
There are parts of the world where it is very
difficult to get information copied or notarized or mailed in a timely manner,
and I think we need to recognize that, and maybe we can recognize it and see
and say that we are unable to try and identify the harm the – the amount of
time that is the right time, but that we should make some comment about the
process that is followed and that would be in a little kind of note, ‘Your
comments.’ Abel (ph), in some way you want to conduct and figure out how.
ABEL (ph):
Yes …
CADE:
We have Laurence
LAURENCE: Marilyn, is it my turn?
CADE:
Yes.
LAURENCE: OK.
I am sorry, I really have difficulties to – well, I
just would like to say that I understand (ph) Ken’s (ph) argument. I fully understand that but I also believe
we have another goal, and there is a huge difference between 15 days to respond
and 45 days as it has been proposed.
And I am not fully convinced yet the need to extend this period. I am not – Ken (ph) don’t you think the
example you have given, how lucky we are in Europe to have two weeks holiday
also in the summer for instance …
STUBBS (ph):
Four weeks in France.
LAURENCE:
Also in France or …
STUBBS (ph):
Four weeks in France.
LAURENCE– or for instance, the difficulties for
some countries – you referred last time in our last conference call through a
letter you sent from Shanghai, which arrived I think three weeks later in the
US. Don’t you think these cases are
exceptional cases and …
STUBBS (ph):
Well I – let me try to be practical from a registrar’s standpoint. Let us suppose that a registrar is unable to
reach somebody by standard e-mail. Now
he has a couple of choices; first of all he can send out an overnight Federal
Express or UPS traceable thing if they are outside the United States. But now the registrar is incurring
signifICANNt cost that they can’t necessarily recover. If they use standard mail with request for
returned receipt, as I did, in the case of communicating with the law firm in
France, it took almost a month to get everything done, because the receipt has
to get back to you. Do you assume, that
if you do not have a receipt back, that it was not delivered and therefore you
would delete the domain or do you just assume, the receipt is only tardy in
arriving back?
So I am just trying to arrive at some sort of a
practical benchmark, and I am saying, in my opinion, that the original 15 days
was a little arbitrary and capricious.
The only problem is, we don’t know how arbitrary it might have been, or
whether it was arbitrary at all. So it
seems to me that we could probably cut through the chase and recommend in our report
that additional, a follow-up in this area, be done to determine what an
effective time period is, and encourage ICANN (ph), working with the
registrars, to develop a time period that takes into consideration some of the
concerns the taskforce has. I’m not
good at putting what I just said into writing but I know Steve (ph) or one of
you is, so …
CADE:
Can I do this real quickly and then we’ll conduct (INAUDIBLE) status of
the poll, so see if we are in agreement with.
You all want to comment before we take (INAUDIBLE) an amendment to see
that what Steve suggested as well.
METALITZ (ph):
Marilyn, I’d like to comment.
KRISTY (ph):
Yes, Steve (ph) and Marilyn, this is Kristy (ph) I have a question once
he is finished.
CADE:
Yes, we have Steve (ph), we also though have Tony Harris (ph) who’d like
to comment.
Steve (ph), can I let him go first?
METALITZ (ph):
Absolutely.
CADE:
Tony (ph).
KRISTY MCKEE:
Yes, I’ll pass right now the discussion has gone past what I had to
say.
CADE:
OK, Steve (ph).
METALITZ (ph):
OK. Let me suggest two
things. First, in response to Ken (ph),
let me suggest the following language, that we should begin 5-C by saying,
“Some members of the taskforce believe 15 days is insufficient to establish
material breach in all cases.” That
would be the first sentence of C.
CADE:
Yes.
METALITZ (ph):
And then, it would go on. “ICANN
should work with registrars to monitor,” and then adding new language, “and
collect more extensive data on,” at the end of the new language, “the specific
impact on the 15 days period,” and so forth.
So, that would make it clear that some people have their minds made up,
that 15 days is not sufficient, but in any case, we think ICANN (ph) should
collect better data so that – so this question can be evaluated.
The second point I’d like to make, just before
we lose it – I think Abel (ph) raised a very important point, which is, as it
stands now, the RAA (ph) in section 3.7.8, just says that the registrar is
supposed to take reasonable steps to investigate the claims and accuracy. It doesn’t say what they should do, and
certainly this could be a good subject for best practices.
CADE:
Yes.
METALITZ (ph):
And maybe we ought to mention, encourage the registrars to work with
interested parties on developing best practices in this area.
KEN STUBBS: Can I respond real quickly
Marilyn. I am not trying to drag this
out at all. I think, I agree with
almost everything Steve (ph) said except for the first – the very first
sentences and that is that minimizes it to some extent when you say that some
of the members of the taskforce. I
think what I’d be willing to bet is that there is no consensus in the taskforce
that 15 days is adequate. And I think
that’s a fair description of this than to say that there are some people. You know we have …
METALITZ (ph):
Yes, I agree with you.
KEN STUBBS:
Situations, where one constituency out of eight, or out of seven,
disagrees and we use the same term for some constituencies, so I think it would
be better to indicate that, indicate seven.
I feel very strongly, that we need to have a best practice set up, we
also need to have a definable procedure for making sure that people don’t abuse
it, Steve (ph).
CADE:
OK, I am going to, I am going to make a proposal. I think, I agree with that there is no
consensus in the taskforce about the 15 days.
I do think that if I were being asked to extend the 15 days by another ten
that on behalf of the BC (ph), I’d be more comfortable with that. We have people be- would not be – able to
meet the 15 days, so the same kind of reasons that it’s kind of complicated, to
communicate with them where their company is in remote locations, but since we
are not proposing a specific extension, what I would propose is, we pick up the
modification they (ph) made, there is no consensus.
We are recommending that ICANN (ph) enforce and
the registrars enforce the 15 days now.
I think we should recommend a time period, like over the next six months
ICANN (ph) should work with registrars to correct more extensive information
and examples (ph) and then, after further evaluation of any change that is need
to be undertaken – is something of that nature, but give them a time
frame. Maybe it’s a year, but I was
think it might be six months.
TONY HARRIS:
Well six months sounds good.
THOMS ROESSLER: That sounds almost perfect.
One very little announcement I would like to get in somewhere and that
is, that we should not be likely take to account, that we have received a lot of
comments during the redemption (ph) period, which also raised concerns about
the different date periods.
CADE:
That’s right.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Taking into account the comments received on
this particular topic that I have pushed our (INAUDIBLE) something like
this.
CADE: Yes.
Yes, now let me just ask a different question here. I would assume that if a registrar came to
ICANN (ph) staff, said I have been – I am a member of registrars who are Latin
America and in Africa and it’s clear they are not receiving this data in time
to get back to me, and so, I dodged the message, but a number of these
incidences are not in the redemption base period. That would – ICANN (ph) would be able to determine that there is
a problem there. That the redemption
grace period is still there, as a recovery mechanism, even though there may be
harm to – even though the site may have gone dark and we may need to think
about it being a rapid recovery, if some kind of documentation is done that it
was a failure to be notified. We’ve not
addressed that, and I believe that would probably fall out of the scope of this
taskforce, other than to note that the ICANN (ph) staff should be gathering
such data. Right?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: And nobody spoke.
THOMAS ROESSLER: I am thinking about what you said about the registrar having a
hard time in reaching his customers in the overseas areas, to put it that way,
but isn’t it for the registrar itself, a loophole in the entire set up by
saying that – first of all, we are talking about the 15-day period to answer,
or to react after you’ve been notified through reasonable ways. But, if the registrar knows it’s going to
Africa, a reasonable period to wait for arrival of the letter is three to four
weeks. So, basically the registrar
itself and, maybe, we could make a remark in that sense that some
responsibility to ensure that it’s method of contact it says within reason and
the time frame as well.
CADE:
Yes …
METALITZ (ph):
Marilyn, this is Steve. Can I,
can I read what I think is what is been proposed here. First sentence of 5-C, “There is not a
consensus on the taskforce, taking into account comments received if 15 days is
sufficient to establish material breach in all cases.” And then it will go on, ‘ICANN (ph) should
work with registrars to monitor an correct and ICANN (ph) should work with
registrars over the next six months to monitor and collect more extensive data
on the specific impact, et cetera” …
CADE:
Yes.
STEVE METALITZ: Is that what …
CADE: …
and, and then you would say, any consideration of a modification 15 day period
would then be deferred back to the main center.
STEVE METALITZ: It then, doesn’t matter (ph)?
CADE:
There used to be …
STEVE METALITZ: – it needs counseling, within six months.
CADE:
That, that would be the standard process; it is just that I can’t
suddenly do that. It is the
post-intensive (ph) policy that says that 15 days is the period …
METALITZ (ph):
That’s correct; I think …
CADE:
You said that there may be more documentation …
STUBBS (ph):
By the way, I’m fine with what Steve (ph) just said, I think you did a
good job of grafting a …
MCKEE:
Thank you, Ken (ph). This is
Kristy (ph), I was just going to ask you …
STUBBS (ph):
I just wanted to try and get this thing cleared up in such away that we
don’t keep dragging on and on …
CADE:
OK, so, I’m going to feed us along as we have lots to cover. The only thing that I would ask you to do is
to see that – the data, the report is provided to the main council to determine
what policy action is to be taken, something like that.
STUBBS (ph):
The agreement was that the concern I had, when I just spoke up against
this was that if, I can start notices in those last 15 days, I can cause real
concern – they should, of course, be able to somewhat loosen the enforcement of
the compound (ph) policy. I believe –
want to stop it (INAUDIBLE) close it:
have a new partner- I think it is time, with the wording (ph), you
forget this, Marilyn.
CADE: I
think that you have the ability to do that.
STUBBS (ph):
I’m sorry?
CADE: I
think you have the ability to do that, to waive (ph) something, because it is
necessary – I think you have the ability to do that.
STUBBS (ph):
… we don’t close …
CADE:
Right. OK, next – Steve (ph)?
METALITZ (ph):
I think that the remaining issue is – assuming we’re done with 5-C. I believe the remaining issue is a fairly
straightforward one in 8A (ph), which is the one which deals with this …
CADE:
I’m sorry. This has been
high-lighted in side SPTN (ph)-6. It’ s
been highlighted that I’m on- have you
taken that off?
METALITZ (ph):
I asked Thomas (ph). He put them
in, so I …
THOMAS (ph):
I put them in because I was not sure that – wait a moment, I don’t have
a PAX (ph) in front of me, but one of you who have a draft, if you could
accommodate the consensus policy, because it looked like that to me and it
should be marked occasionally – it is more of an editorial command.
If this is going to be a compromise policy, we
somehow, have to take it out of the recommendations, make clear waters of this
– we will not go into the material part of this.
CADE: I
think what is required at this registrars (INAUDIBLE) obligatory signature
(ph), and maintain (INAUDIBLE) contact later.
I hope that considering that we’re not
limited to the time of going (ph) to registration. I believe, that is a consensus agreement of
the taskforce. Can I hear your answers
now?
KAREN (ph):
Yes
THOMAS (ph):
Yes
METALITZ (ph):
Yes.
CADE.:
So, we are not – we’re not dissipating on how or not this should be
done. But, we are saying that that’s consensus that 6-A and 6B and Steve
(ph), if you don’t mind dividing it that way, as we did the other one? Then, 6-B should be also have information
about this (INAUDIBLE). 6-A and 6-B
should also be responsible for ensuring that the retailers provide such
reminders. I don’t know about the
consensus in the taskforce, but I think …
METALITZ (ph):
… is there an objection to it, maybe, is the way to …
THOMAS ROESSLER: Let me ask a question, what does responsible mean? Responsible to whom …
STEVE METALITZ: I think that under the contract, it can’t, I mean, the registrar
can’t say,” See, I didn’t have to- OK this position in my contract – I thought
my visa wasn’t good”
Agency wise (ph); you will be responsible for
the acts of your agent, so.
THOMAS ROESSLER: To the extent that (INAUDIBLE)
I don’t know the name of the firm, we may have the problems of the
contract on you may have to resettle acting as an agent of your discount
(ph). In that case, the more
appropriate language would be that registrars also responsible for having the
agent pay the staff (ph) …
THOMAS (ph):
Can you give me an example of a reseller (ph) acting as the agent of a
registrant and not as a registrar?
STEVE METALITZ: I don’t have an example here, but I’m pretty sure that in one of
the last calls we were told this was one of the possible contract designs (ph)
…
MCKEE (ph): It is possible. This is Kristy (ph). We will see messages from, you know,
different registrars asking us to work as an agent, so that, we will be going
to be responsible for our client and not be responsible for the registry at all
– we don’t do any work like that. But,
they would like us to work as the reseller rather than as a general reseller
for our clients, we don’t do that, but I’m sure that’s what we are talking
about. I would think that agent and
reseller would want to be included.
STEVE METALITZ: Let (ph) me go back to – the beginning (ph), or did this come out
of – I just have to think about the two …
METALITZ (ph):
I think that Thomas (ph) is suggesting that we change the word,
resellers, to agents, and that will be OK with me.
KRISTY:I agree with that.
CADE:
OK. In that case, the agent
definitely has a different relationship, but that does let the resellers off
the hook.
METALITZ (ph):
Well, no, I think in most cases, resellers are their agents of the
registrar, so if they’re not, I suppose that …
THOMAS (ph):
It’s a correct (ph) story (ph), so …
CADE: –
the language says the task force(ph) means registrars could operate(ph)
(INAUDIBLE). Steve (ph), how do you
feel about that language that says the taskforce says, registrars should also
be responsible for ensuring that the resellers and the agent survive the
reminders.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: (INAUDIBLE) or agents?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Pardon me, I couldn’t hear that.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: The printer is really affecting my ability
to hear.
ABEL:
I’m back, but it was just somebody started two printers at the same time
right behind me. I’m sorry.
CADE:
That’s OK, let’s see if we can hear now. Registrars – excuse me (INAUDIBLE), registrars should also be
responsible for assuring – for insuring that their resellers and agents provide
such reminders.
CADE:
OK, what I’m basically saying is, we’re making this as a recommendation,
it may not rise to the level of documentation consensus from the community,
because I’m don’t know if we’ve gotten enough comments on it..
: I’m with the first change and about the
second one, I’ll really do it later (INAUDIBLE). That way we will be better off.
Pat (ph), that was the lease federal (ph) for their agent.
THOMAS (ph):
I don’t, well…
KRISTY McKEE:
How about a legal opinion?
STEVE METALITZ: Well. We don’t…
THOMAS (ph):
I thought we had an agreement, but I guess Marilyn, you would object to
registrars as an office responsible for ensuring that their agents provide such
reminders?
CADE:
I’m asking the question because it’s been raised in TUCOWS, and I
believe that it (ph) weighs (ph) in 2,000 (ph) contacts (ph), and I don’t know
that this registrars themselves have agreements that they are – I don’t know
what their responsibility is in this area, so I cant expect (ph) more than, I
believe they should be responsible. If
they are delegating responsibility; I believe they have to delegate
responsibility – if they’re delegating lies (ph) they have to delegate
responsibility.
METALITZ (ph):
OK, well this whole paragraph is shushed (ph). I think we should also say that registrars should also be
responsible … .
CADE:
OK, I’m happy with that change and then we can, lets go to see when (ph)
ICANN (ph), and should also take steps to include information about this on
appropriate, oh, never mind, I just wanted you to break that in to 82 beside
(ph)
METALITZ (ph):
Oh, yes, I can certainly see that.
THOMAS ROESSLER: Marilyn, is it really prudent to do this in APC (ph) fashion
(ph)? I think we would certainly
confuse some readers about what is consensus policy and what is not.
CADE:
The last two points are not consensus policy.
STEVE METALITZ: We are, our –just hope that we format (ph) that very strongly.
THOMAS (ph):
OK, can we move on to 8A?
METALITZ (ph):
Yes.
THOMAS (ph) (?): I think though, what is left in 8A is that we have two different
formulations of the next and the last sentencing (ph), let me put this in
context. This is saying that once the
registration goes into this hold period or redemption period, and I’m not going
to argue about which is which. Standard
redemption mechanism should only be applicable, in other words, what would the
registrar have to do to get it out of the limbo that it is in, and my suggestion
was that there – I think what was really in the earlier draft was provided that
an accurate and verified contact information is available, in other words, you
get out of limbo by providing accurate, verified contact information, and
Thomas’ (ph) suggestion was, the safeguards appropriate for this specific
circumstances of (ph) this (ph) should (ph) be (ph) so, and then the last
sentence, which I think, there is an agreement on is that the details are under
investigation in breached (ph) task(ph) forces (ph). So, I think, that’s where things will – and the reason for my
recommendation is I think we should say that in the circumstances in which you
should get your domain name back may be the details of the week’s taskforce –
this is one step with general.
If I may give a resonic (ph) on my recommendation, on my verdict, as far as I can understand is, from one of the members of the Delete taskforce, they are thinking about redemption mechanisms in very broad trends and should look at what the redemption grace period does. We have in the main language (ph), which has been deleted. Now for the mech., at this point we are basically going back to the registry, there is some period of time during which the registrar may say, OK, it was wrong, please give the domain name back, the domain name back that the registrar has and its logged (ph) in to return to the pool (ph) of freedom (ph) for, and if, and at this point of the places, the registrar would be in a perfect position to further deal with inaccuracy.
One scenario may be like, like the registrant pays or provide some information. The information is not official part in standard but it’s very clear things will be worked out. So the domain name is removed from the danger of really getting lost. I will be getting back to the second step, just one possible way of applying this – this appraisal (ph), for instance, would not be covered by the wording (ph) in the redemption grace period, should only be applicable. If information is provided – I think there may be configurations, which we have not, been doing, in sufficient detail and that’s why I’m forgetting that we really leave the interactions for various states, domain names can be in and out of control about the question, who has control over it at that point?
I would really prefer to the delete (ph) taskforce, which should have the necessary expertise and just say, “Just fax this as a problem?” So this may become local, and it mustn’t become one. Please provide appropriate safeguards. Maybe we could include the old sentence as an example of how these save (ph) cards should, could look like. But I prefer, not to make at this point, judgment how this somewhat complicated matter should be resolved. I don’t think we really know it.
METALITZ (ph):
Well, this is Steve. Can I
respond to that?
CADE:
You can. Should we give other
people – hear about this as well?
METALITZ (ph):
I’ll be glad to go after anybody else.
CADE:
OK. Does anyone have a comment
on this?
KEN STUBBS (ph): One thing that I am a little concerned about is, and I wish Bret
(ph) is on the call, because he is on the deletions (ph) taskforce. One thing that I …
MARILYN :
Who is on the call?
KEN STUBBS:
Bret Fauset (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: OK.
MARILYN:
I did join the, the discussion of the deletions task force today and
there was a discussion about the fact that the redemption grace period would
only apply when accurate and verified contact information is provided. And the registrar on the call can really
noted that registrars do take extra steps to insure that you know, some – some
unknown source who doesn’t come forward.
So maybe the other guy is not who we says he is. I am the real guy – put my name in contact
information now. But registrars are
taking the steps to make sure they are getting accurate data the second time
around – including speaking for forms of verification. And that is being supported by, by the, by
being supported by the deletions (ph) taskforce, as far as I can tell. I’m not sure, Thomas (ph), that I understand
what the safeguard (ph), is appropriate for specific circumstances for deletion
meant here?
THOMAS: It confuses me what the registrar
invokes redemption grace based on something I would call preliminary –
preliminary evidence. Once again, put
the domain name on predeletion (ph) hold – something like that. So basically, the period as the different
(ph) scenario. For modification (ph) …
MARILYN:
Well, I think, I think I understand that. Let me see if I can get what’s your order (ph). So what you’re basically saying is, someone
has been – someone’s name has been deleted in error because they didn’t respond
in time or some other, some other confusion occurred and they had to (ph) start
(ph). And you’re looking for a way to
quickly get them back up and running while a more clear (ph) investigation is
undertaken.
THOMAS (ph):
Must be even that, once the redemption great period is going, you have a
timer running. At the end of that
timer, the domain is deleted. It’s
finally deleted and available for re-registration. The thing, I think, I have in mind something like, I get a
notification concerning a domain name, which is, which has inaccurate, whose
data for some reason, I like a lot that stuff (ph). It takes some hundreds great over periods get over the registrars
deletes the domain name and at that part of time, I caught the registrar say,
“Hey, correct information is in the mail, please make sure you don’t completely
lose hold of a domain name.” At that point, the registrar would have to go
through redemption grace period without having accurate information. He would, however, probably put the domain
name on hold and not return it. To say,
it’s possible to prevent it from being lost completely by invoking redemption
grace. If on the other hand, redemption
grace could only be invoked once registrar has provided verifiable evidence
then it could be too late.
STEVE METALITZ: How does it work, Thomas (ph) with money? Can you call; say the
check (ph) is in the mail? Put my registration back into operation.
THOMAS (ph): I haven’t tried out so far (ph).
CADE:
Yes
STEVE METALITZ: That’s what you’re suggesting here.
CADE:
Yes, but see – we probably, hold on a minute – we probably can’t
do. There probably are circumstances
where a registrar could call and say, “My credit card didn’t work – let me give
up a new credit card or I’ll mail you the money.” That probably is in the discussion at the registrant,
registrar. I don’t know the answer to
that, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
There are some days that they are, that’s firm that but they have to do
certain things. There are a lot of
discussions with them (ph).
THOMAS:
Can I, can we try to reach some conclusion on this so that it’s a
compromise so that people, and we can move on?
CADE: I
do think that the addition of accurate and verifiable contact information is
something that is worth saying, and I believe that is being supportive, as far
as I can tell from the delete (ph) in taskforce. The thing I didn’t, I had one other question – I didn’t actually
understand what the details of this question are under the investigation and
the names council (ph) delete (ph) taskforce – just the way it was worded it
means, I think is that, the profits that will be followed, in relation to,
standard deletions policy – is that what you’re saying?
THOMAS (ph):
The thing I was trying to say was that over the issue number two was
slightly (ph) discussion (ph), may be if I may, I would like to suggest some
possible language – if the functional description of what we are trying to say,
may be we could approach say that one such saturations (ph) are deleted after
the end of the whole period, standard redemption, make a note of it, should
only be applicable, should be applicable period. However, the domain name in question should not be returned to
operational status before registrant has submitted reliable contact
information. Details of this are under
discussion in the deletion (ph) taskforce.
I think that’s the primary concern.
You say the current registrar must not reconnect with the domain name,
unless they really have this information.
CADE (?):
OK. That’s one point. I have a question as well, about the fact
that, and Steve (ph), I know you didn’t want to discuss an appropriate whole
mechanism, for a certain period of time – that is not the appropriate (ph)
whole mechanism for a certain period of time – you are saying that the
taskforce was not making a recommendation on whether that is a second hold
period or that is the standard redemption grace period.
THOMAS (ph):
To whom does that question (ph) go?
CADE:
Steve (ph).
METALITZ (ph):
No, I’m not making a recommendation on that – I don’t I think we are
making a recommendation on that. I
think the idea was some people were concerned that the – remember we had
comments that said that people could refuse the system and grab the name by
submitting the claim of false contact data that we responded to. And partly to prevent that and partly
ameliorate the problems that some people anticipated there needs to be some
type of limbo status – now I don’t know what right label for that is and I
don’t really I don’t think from our perspective it makes much difference, but
there needs to be some period of time during which your domain name does not
resolve but if you provide accurate or verified contact information then it
will go back into the system.
CADE: I
think – I want to suggest that – if we, in general, the taskforces (ph) agrees,
that that would be the standard redemption grace period which ought to be, it
seems to me, the standard redemption grace period ought to be a uniform
solution which is applicable in a number of settings applying it here rather
than devising a new one I believe it’s what the taskforce is in agreement
with. Note – let me just try this – the
note that the taskforce is not – did not – develop, I do think we ought to say
that we didn’t develop a different whole mechanism but would recommend that the
uniform that the standard redemption grace period should be applicable because
I do think we did have agreement to that, didn’t we – within the taskforce?
THOMAS (ph):
I’m sorry Marilyn I think we have really two separate issues – one is do
we want to apply redemption grace – I think, I think we have agreement
redemption grace period should apply, but I don’t think we have agreement that
should apply immediately after the end of 15 days or whatever day period the
registrant has for a client (ph). There
are, I think, the pact that currently stands have a three step process step –
one registrar hands a notification to the registrar – the main man continues to
operate so that’s two 15 days, 30 days – whatever is appropriate to in the end
– expire. The registrant does not
reply. At this point, the domain name
is removed from his own file but remains under the registrar’s control – that
is what is called an appropriate hold period.
How long does this step two takes is open. Step three is the registrar gives up – sends a delete command to
the registry and at this point, the domain name enters the redemption grace
period.
CADE:
OK. I’m not sure and I just want
to make sure that everyone else agrees with you that it is a three step process
because that is really the question I tried to get it to before – are we saying
that this is a three step process? Steve (ph)?
METALITZ (ph): No. I don’t think, I don’t think that was my understanding I think the only one who would be affected by this would be the registrars. I mean it’s a question whether the registrar, as you said, retains control or not that’s the only difference I can see, between hold and redemption grace periods. I guess I would ask the registrars have any objection to simply applying the standard redemption grace.
THOMAS (ph):
If I may I’d like to recommend on that.
CADE:
You plan on in just a minute, but I just to interject another factor
(ph) here. The registrars today do put
names on hold whenever they go into UBIC (ph).
They may put them on hold for non-payment – there are other reasons why
the registrar might either lock a name or put a name on hold. I’m concerned about what we have before we
argue this out I want to I want to be sure that everyone on the taskforce, that
we know that we have researched enough to say that we have we can make a recommendation
or if we need to say the taskforce is not yet in agreement on this particular
area and think they have to take further input into account – they have to do
further research or if we can recommend an interim solution, remembering that
interim solutions cost registrars money to implement.
But right now we’ve gotten to that size, and we
are around to eight and we were back in discussion we were in in five. Thomas (ph) is proposing a three-step
process. We would have to say that if
we go with the three-step process that we did not define what an appropriate
hold mechanism is, nor what a certain amount of time is. OK?
THOMAS:
Yes
CADE: I
know it is understood I just want to I want to make sure everybody is with it
somewhere. So we hear from other people
on the taskforce to make sure we have clarity about what the discussion is and
then Thomas (ph) – you want to back and see those two (ph)?
STUBBS (ph):
Yes. This is, this is Ken Stubbs
(ph) – can I respond to your inquiry there?
CADE:
Yes
STUBBS (ph):
Yes – with respect to the registrar I can only speak for myself at this
point in time, but I would think that we’d be inclined to go along with
Steven’s capitalization of the situation.
I don’t think that necessarily a three-part process is necessary.
CADE:
But, but so …
STUBBS (ph):
When I have to – we have to get the information and the feedback you
know.
CADE:
But, but, but by doing that you did just agree to the 15 days and then
going immediately to the redemption grace.
STUBBS (ph):
Well then I if that was the case, then I just, I misunderstood what
Steve (ph) had said then – just forget everything I just said.
KEN STUBBS:
OK. I am
sorry you know.
CADE:
That is why I said this isn’t clear in all cases
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I had to get off the conference for just a
second, unfortunately. I got a hold of
Ram Mohan (ph) who has evidently torn a muscle in his lower back and is in
agony so he’ll not be with us today so I apologize.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: No missing surgery.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I’m sorry – I should have just shut up. But I was …
CADE:
No. No. Just keep going. OK. Anyone else?
LAURENCE DJOLAKIAN: I have to leave the conference meeting (ph) now Marilyn, so …
CADE:
That is…
STEVE METALITZ: Good second part so, OK. Bye.
STEVE METALITZ: Marilyn I think – Hello?
CADE:
Hello.
METALITZ (ph):
Marilyn? This is Steve – am I in the queue or …?
CADE:
Yes – go ahead.
METALITZ (ph):
I think Thomas (ph) had suggested a sentence to go in here that may not
totally resolve this, but may at least allow us to move on and let me see if I
got it right. You suggested that the
sentence that begins when such registrations are deleted should end should it
should end standard redemption mechanism should be applicable period. New sentence – however the domain name
should be not be returned to operational status until accurate and verified
contact information is available. First
of all, I got that right. Second –
again I don’t think that totally resolves this issue but I think it gets across
the point that I want to make sure it was gotten across. And again, it leaves the details to the
deletes (ph) taskforce.
THOMAS (ph):
So something’s right. And …
CADE:
When Thomas (ph) heard – that still does not – well, I do think that if
if there is a view that a three step process is needed that would need to take
a – I am not saying that we need to go back now – but that would need to back
to 5-C (ph) and anything (ph) of that nature, would I think, be then undertaken
by certain work under the selection of the name tags (ph).
THOMAS (ph):
Marilyn, this is a proposed change eight – the complete of eight –
because the proposed change through – through the agreement which we recommend
and which should be considered in the future – this is written anyway. This is not company policy anymore so we
really providing input to some future policy making at this point.
CADE:
Steve, (ph). Are you – are you
OK with that? And the drafting of it?
METALITZ (ph):
Yes. With what I just read? Yes.
CADE:
Check (ph) about the one Thomas (ph) just said. Because, right now, Thomas (ph), eight says
the following changes to the agreement are recommended – A has in it, that there’s
just been an appropriate hold mechanism for a certain period and B, what Steve
(ph) just read to me, makes Lisa (ph) believe that the appropriate hold
mechanism is viewed as being the standard redemption mechanism – not in second
stage hold mechanism.
THOMAS (ph):
What Steve (ph) just brought (ph) was as far as I had, forty (ph) pacts
to work it worked the safeguards to be put in place with respect to redemption
grace period and just to make sure that we really understand what we are
talking about in his for ten minutes ago – Steve said he doesn’t see any
difference to anyone except the registrar to putting (ph) the domain name on
hold and to invoking (ph) for the redemption period there is a difference –
redemption grace period is a fixed amount of time and I suppose we would catch
up our hats (ph) part (ph) if we suggest different kinds of redemption grace
period.
A hold period prior to deletion could be
adopted (ph) to things like the remaining time of registration – things like
that. So there is a whole lot more
flexibility if you do it if you put the domain name on hold before the delete
command is issued – so there is a measurable difference, but maybe what would
be more appropriate actually to move
eight a power in domain and say OK, this needs further discussion too.
STEVE:
Well – the I mean – its actually the thought that came into the call
-one thing that we all seem to agree on was that if you don’t answer the
inquiry your name shouldn’t just be cancelled and I guess that’s what you are saying
that it should be if we move this in.
What I thought it what Marilyn was suggesting is that may be if this
goes through the standard redemption grace period, then there is no need to
change the registrar of presentation agreement which is that. Is that what you were saying Marilyn?
Because I think that’s a good point.
CADE:
Two things guys. I’m going to be
sure that everybody understands you know, its very difficult, and we do the
best we can, but we sometimes find out that we are speaking past (ph) each
other. So, what I’m hearing is some
people on the taskforce (ph), think that there needs to be a second hold
period, during which the registrar can hold – but put the name on hold that he
has not issued the deletion command.
Redemption grace takes place after a deletion command is issued and the
name is on hold at the registry level, not at the registrar level, and Thomas
(ph) you are recommending a hold of a standard period at the registrar level.
THOMAS (ph):
I have a standard period, but I’m not – a standard period at this point,
not recommending anything like ten days, but something depending on the
standardized way, on the circumstances like the remaining period of the
registration, which has ...
CADE:
The remaining period of registration should be nine months.
THOMAS (ph):
Yes.
CADE: I
– it’s not really; I don’t think there’s instances (ph) within the taskforce on
leaving a name on hold at the registrar for a period of time like that.
THOMAS (ph):
Do we often think (ph), why we don’t have a consensus policy (ph) on
this particular item?
CADE:
Steve (ph), is it possible to divide a …
METALITZ (ph) (?): Well, wait a minute, I’m not sure what, what is possible to
divide a…
CADE:
I say, because we do have a consensus about redemption rate.
THOMAS (ph):
OK, may be if I can forget something we should, then we should say, that
first week of month (ph) that a redemption grace period, when implemented,
should apply to, the domain names that we did cancelled (ph) due to majority
(ph) inquiry (ph) et cetera. Then we
would have a second part, which says that a sanction other than cancellation
should be considered, once again subjective to the redemption grace period.
CADE: …
we have recommended in a five series (ph) a work program that would come up at
this stage that would be necessary to determine the needs and the time for an
extension to the 15 days.
THOMAS (ph) (?): Well, so, that’s the time during which the domain name continues
to operate and revolve (ph).
CADE: I
think may be the way that to, well, I guess, I would suggest that we already
(ph) divide this. A1 would be that we
all agree that it should be subject to redemption grace period with the caveat
that the redemption mechanism is provisioned (ph) with accurate and verified
contact information. The second point
is, we would want to say that one member of the cast also thinks there ought to
be prior to the redemption grace period, a period of registrar level hold,
extending as long as the registration, the suspension (ph) period of
registration that, I don’t know that anybody else has stepped up to that.
THOMAS (ph) (?): Just, after that, I think most of the registrar comments we have
received, actually suggest some kind of a hope, instead of a consolation to
these, instead of immediately issuing what we need to have, I think, actually I
got that, got recommendation to make it the best of the registration
period. It’s not anything, I can risk
(ph) in, just say it is something, it could be. It is really something we have to look at in the future.
CADE:
And let me reinforce and support that the comments we did receive, we
did receive comments about the need for a hold (ph) period before it goes to
the reef (ph). I’m just trying to
picture out, so if we receive comments of that nature. I’m just trying to figure out how we
consolidate. Why do we have consensus
for, why do we have here, that still we receive some comments, some members of
the taskforce say it’s not consensus on whether there needs to be a three tier
approach. We did receive comments that
recommended to us that the registrar has been able to put the name on hold
rather than deleting it while they tried to reach the registrar.
KEN STUBBS:
My personal feeling is that we should try to make it as easy as possible
from the registrar’s stand point, and that of two-step process, would be a
better process rather than going to a three-step where we have, putting the
registration on hold at the end of 15 days and then what? How we define hold? Does that mean that we make the domain go
dark but don’t delete the domain so then that goes right back to what we just
discussed before and that issue taking somebody down at the end of 15 days, and
that may not be practical.
So, I would rather see a two-step process where
it goes, it goes to a delete which puts it in the redemption grace period and
if it’s not resolved at that time then it goes off entirely. But you are asking registrars to write code,
and more importantly, you are asking each registrar to decide what constitutes
due process for deleting a domain, and I’m just thinking that, that’s going to
– that’s really not a good way of dealing with it because some registrars may
be more discriminatory than other registrars and – it’s just a …
CADE:
OK. We did, let me see if I can
…
KEN STUBBS:
That’s all I’m saying.
CADE:
Yes. We did. We did receive comments about the option of
putting things on hold, and why that was an important thing to have a control
for the registrars. I – I think, we’ve
heard – we probably need to go back and look at those comments, that it
definitely is not one member of the taskforce, but, the thing I’m trying to see
that, if we can, is, what is not consensus, is how to deal with an interim (ph)
staff (ph) such as an appropriate hold mechanism at the registrar level for a
defined period of time. That would
prevent (ph) the (ph) rest (ph) from (ph), that’s not a fully agreed to
process. Of course we did receive
comments. But, we do, I believe we have
consensus on standard redemption.
STEVE:
Well then, maybe we should say that should be A1 in the redemption grace
period, and A 2 would be say that there is not consensus on the whole period
but it should be put there for…
CADE:
OK.
MCKEE (ph):
Or maybe – this is Kristy (ph). We
could say, I think after listening to everybody, my opinion is going to
change. I think we really need to focus
on elongating the15 day period, because of what things (ph) I had not even
thought about that. I was thinking of,
if you can get on hold but I just realized how much code (ph) they have to
write to do this. It’s going to be
expensive and for a interim mechanism.
I agree with what Ken (ph) has to say, so maybe our focus is to try to
increase the amount of time, and in the event that they don’t think that’s
reasonable then our secondary recommendation is to have a hold period at the
registrar level. OK?
THOMAS (ph):
If I may weigh in on that, I think what we have here is a lot of
registrar commands, which will command (ph) that whole period. And, the implementation file with our P (ph)
at least. It’s the amount putting the
domain into a registrar hold status.
This is a standard, an existing status, which removes the domain name
from the old (ph) file, so that nothing goes dark. I would really, well one of the reasons we have been hearing for
putting the main registrar on hold, is, we have had the possible chances to
hijack the domain names through (ph) a security complaint (ph), and that in
fact (ph) is always there when you have a very short period of time, until the
main names is up for new registrations.
That is why we even see (ph) some comments that we are talking about
both “indefinite,” and for hold period.
I know, I really suggest that we settle for a
language (ph) fee (ph), suggestions we have from some, implying the redemption
grace period, one for the domain name is deleted. We have received command and putting in an additional hold period
before the domain name is deleted.
These comments were most of the time from registrars at different
opportunities including in Shanghai, and how, and for, how this should be
implemented? If it should be implemented, and for what time should we stop it
(ph) for separate work pursuit.
KEN STUBBS:
The only thing, I would say is, the comments you get from the registrars
is for probably predicated on the assumption that we were keeping a 15 day
delayed period, and they were trying to cover themselves for the situations we
discussed earlier.
CADE:
OK.
THOMAS (ph): Actually some commands combined for 30 to 45, delete period, with the whole recommendation …
CADE:
Guys, this is not resolvable on this call, I think what is resolvable is
re- formatting what Steve (ph) has proposed from Thomas’ (ph) language (ph), we
can’t revisit as, in this output, recommend in our final report, cannot revisit
as a 15 day, it seems to me that we do want to know, that one or that we could
recommend that, and it’s probably this output (ph) that will have to do this
next step of work. We should recommend
that we undertake that, return to me, based on information from the ICANN (ph)
staff, and other inputs whether it is better to extend the 15 day period or to
create a separate hold period. We
received comments on those.
MCKEE (ph).
Thank you Marilyn. I appreciate
that.
CADE:
OK.
THOMAS:
What editorial safeguards do you, with the redemption grace periods,
please put in something along the lines of when implemented because we already
got hit with a command – a hit with a comment that we are incompetent because
our RTC (ph) doesn’t exist as yet.
Should’ve have watched that.
CADE:
OK.
THOMAS (ph):
Next?
CADE:
B, eight B (ph).
STEVE:
I think these are the only issues that, I mean, I think the issues that
have been flagged, I think we’ve gone through.
CADE:
OK?
STEVE:
But obviously, you people have concerns about eight B (ph) or anything in nine (ph).
CADE:
I had a suggestion about you having a nine (ph), and actually I had a
question (ph) about eight B (ph). It
somewhere sees that you need to say, you say something, when you say the
specifics of required validation remain to be determined, you should note
whether it is the recommendation of this taskforce to undertake that work or
whether we recommend that someone else does.
So, you see what I mean?
STEVE:
I see what you mean, but I, I don’t know how to answer that question
because I guess I’m not sure who were – and this is a bigger question about,
what’s our future work? What’s going to be taken over by somebody else? What
happens when the names council disappears and turns into something else? I just
don’t know the answer to that question.
CADE:
OK. The taskforces are not
necessarily – the taskforces are not disappearing and they are morphing (ph)
into something else, and we don’t actually know the exact date, at which we
will morph (ph). There will be no staff
support for at least six months; and so, one of the discussions at the names
council level is the fact that we will continue to be reliant on volunteers for
some period of time. What Ruth (ph) is
expecting this taskforce to do, is to make a recommendation, about what work
needs to be done, and whether this taskforce or some variation of it, will
continue to do some hard selling. There
are other taskforces but, the hope is that they will be censored (ph), but that
the specific required delegation (ph) remains to be determined, we still need
to say – I mean …
STEVE:
I think we should say, after further work by this taskforce or another
appropriate body.
CADE:
Good, good, good, good, good, good, good, and the same thing, I think,
was what I was looking for, on nine (ph) in your heading.
STEVE:
OK, we could say the same thing there, I guess, it’s fine we have to
change the for a meaningful discussion, to this taskforce or another
appropriate body.
CADE:
Right. OK? Concerns (ph) and sensibility (ph)? Karen (ph), are you still with us?
KAREN (ph):
I am still with …
MARILYN CADE:
Bulk access (ph) …
KAREN (ph):
Bulk access (ph), I’m sorry, yes, bulk access (ph).
CADE: OK.
KAREN (ph):
And then what I’m going to do I will improve searchability, and then I
will run for a plane (ph). So, I will
be doing various things while we are doing this, so I can make my plane.
CADE:
OK I just called through the e-mail discussion that’s being going over
the last few days, and I find three issues which are opt (ph) in, versus opt
(ph) out and the definitions that relate to each of those terms. The ineligibility for someone who has
previously breached our (ph) access (ph), and then the tension between national
laws versus the enforcement at the RAA (ph).
Are there any other issues that people want to talk about?
If we could just then, if we could just talk
about opt (ph) in versus “opt (ph) out.”
There was some discussion that – and I agree that there has been in the
feedback, both on the survey and I think in the community feedback that people
prefer opt (ph) in – the reason that we included opt (ph) out in this draft and
the previous draft was kind of our thought that that peoples reaction to opt
(ph) in was probably a visceral reaction to the fact that opt (ph) out has not
really been informative or required by registrars.
So the question for us at this point is, do we
stick to our opt (ph) out and recommendation with a, you know a recommendation
for ICANN (ph) to monitor it as it – it’s implemented as a required as opposed
to an optional structure or do we change our recommendation to “opt (ph) in?”
KAREN (ph):
And this is restricted to bulk access (ph)?
CADE:
Correct.
KAREN (ph):
And that is …
CADE:
Bulk access (ph) for marketing purposes.
KAREN (ph):
Yes.
CADE: I
think we are going to be very clear all the way through on this, that we are
discussing only – and let me just take you back to what that means for a registrar. That means that a registrant would be given
a pop-up by the registrar and asked what action they want to take. So, the registrar would have to take action,
and the registrant will have to respond.
KAREN (ph):
Is it for opt (ph) in or for opt (ph) out, Marilyn?
CADE:
Well, for either one, right? I
think that the registrar will have to cross (ph) the – but now it says
May. Right?
KAREN (ph):
Yes.
CADE: I
don’t know how many registrars have those pop-up windows, but are already in
place, and, at the point of registration were they are asking the registrar “Do
you want to opt (ph) in or “opt (ph) out?” It is something to note that we
recognize, and I’m not saying we don’t do it, guys, it’s just we recognize this
is may need additional code, and therefore it may take time to implement it.
THOMAS (ph):
And for the recommendation, anyway?
STEVE:
Well, it is also contingent in the sense because I think if our main
recommendation about marketing using documents (ph) then this becomes kind of moot
(ph) point.
CADE:
That’s correct.
ABEL (ph):
That’s point B.
MCKEE (ph):
Yes, this is Kristy (ph). I’m
very vocal about this subject – I think I just want to know that everyone
understands that, if we choose an opt (ph) out mechanism, what we are doing is
saying that, yes, all registrars will automatically be included in book access
(ph) for marketing, unless they should choose to respond and to an opt (ph) out
opportunity, and I just don’t think that, that is a workable solution. I think that this morning I got a phone call
from Disney again, giving me another opportunity to opt (ph) out for the
seventh time in 14 days, of receiving automated phone calls from them. And this was a big problem with this, at
least in the United States of America.
The opting out is that you get to opt (ph) out every time you’re contacted. So I don’t see that works very well. I do think that if you give someone the opportunity to go and say that they would like to receive something, they are going to feel a lot better about you as a person or you as a company, because you are not just automatically including them in this big group of people. And the Internet is one place we may be able to control this because when they look at how much it costs to send e-mail, especially unsolicited e-mails, or if people opt (ph) out then it’s not unsolicited is it? It causes problems for us because it’s more expensive, we have less bandwidth to surf with, because there’s all this ECE flying around, except it’s not ECE any more; and that’s not OK with me either. So I just want to know that everybody understands what we are recommending, when we recommend, opt (ph) out versus opt (ph) in.
CADE:
And again, it’s code either way, which I think it is something we need
to understand. You don’t necessarily
changing the demand on the registrar.
KRISTY:
Right. We are not changing the
demand on the registrar, and you know, with the code that you would write for
opt (ph) in, you would have, first off, you would have someone who has logged
into the database. So they have got
their username and password. We just
acknowledge that they have permission to modify this registration. So, and now we can timestamp that. So we know who from what IP address said
that they wanted to make changes, and then they did at this exact moment in
time, choose to opt (ph) in to this and submit. And we have proof now that they really wanted to be
included. And we also need to, after
opt (ph) in, do provide an opt (ph) out mechanism for those people who have
opted in that might decide that why they made a mistake.
CADE:
Oh! That’s right, that’s
right. That’s important.
KRISTY):
So I cannot rule out opt (ph) out completely.
FRAN COLEMAN: You know this is, sorry, this is
Fran Coleman (ph) from GNR (ph), and I’m new to this. So you must forgive my question, but are we saying that the
default is opt (ph) out.
KRISTY:
Right now, it says the default is opt (ph) out.
THOMAS:
Pardon. I’m sorry. Right now it says that registrars may, I
repeat, may, provide a opt (ph) out opportunity. In fact, some registrars don’t even pull out that because of, for
example I asked them. They don’t
provide opt (ph) out because they say they come …
STEVE: They deal with this problem by just not
giving anybody bulk … .
CADE (?):
Eventually (ph) good for it.
THOMAS:
OK. So that’s a, that is a more
radical approach, of course.
KAREN (ph):
Frank (ph), so what we have been suggesting is that we increase the – or
we sort of heighten the requirement, the provision (ph) by saying, they’re
required to add a minimum, implement not opt (ph) out policy. Now, if they have to or would like to
implement opt (ph) in, then that is their prerogative that no longer have the
option of not providing opt (ph) out at the …
KRISTY:
OK. Karen (ph), I like that
because then that provides the registrars.
Once we get the transfers working , then the response (ph) can start
transferring all of these places and they can modify their e-mail addresses so
that they start proceeding this unforseen (ph) e-mail except and we can all up
that anymore. I don’t know what to call
it that is junk mail? Is that fair?
FRAN COLEMAN: That’s the show (ph) that we had
last week, right.
CADE:
Sorry.
CONNORS (ph):
That is for show (ph), we changed, may (ph) to show (ph) last week. The next question, and this is just, and
that is really my last question on this pointer (ph) thing, as, since the EU
directive moves most member states from opt (ph) out to opt (ph) in, soon when
it takes effect. Is our recommendation
now, a short term recommendation?
KAREN:
Well. I think again we have the,
what we’re doing is recommending a minimum requirement both in the actual text
it says – let me just read it, “Incorporating such a minimum requirement should
not preclude (ph) any one registrar from implementing a more stringent opt
(ph)- in policy,” and then there is a parenthetical that says, “in particular
such a policy is required by national laws determined to be applicable to a
ICANN (ph) contracting party.
CONNORS (ph) (?): So, we are comfortable; when we may soon be living in a world where the overwhelming requirement, I mean, there are 350 million people in Europe and, say, 300 commuters, and the predominant requirement will be opt (ph) in. Are we setting ourselves up for serious revisiting of this issue in the near time?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I’m sorry.
Guys, I’m back. I apologize for
that, I got myself off.
KAREN:
Frank (ph), I think we are, if we choose opt (ph) out because we’ll have
to adjust for Europe.
THOMAS (ph):
How’s that? We leave registrars
with an option to take opt (ph) in. So
if they have a national law obligation to do opt (ph) in, they’ll have, they
can do it. That’s one, there are two
changes into the modifications Karen (ph) is suggesting. One, registrars shall provide some kind of
protection mechanism for marketing uses to the extent these users are continued
to permit, despite our earlier recommendation.
Something has to be done, at least opt (ph) out. Second, they are no longer prohibited from
introducing opt (ph) in.
KAREN:
OK. Thomas (ph), what you are
saying is that if we provide the opportunity for them to use opt (ph) in our
policy, obviously then that just works with the EU directive.
CADE:
OK. Yes, I don’t know how I
missed that, but thank you.
THOMAS (ph):
Yes, at least that is how I understand what Karen (ph) is
proposing. Of course, I may be wrong.
KAREN (ph):
No, that’s exactly what, I mean …
FRAN COLEMAN:
But it just seems to me that the commonsense of the situation and I, you
said term too loosely, probably, you said that when most people and most
people, when most registrations are required by law to be opt (ph) in, which
will be down there within a year, I think, does it make sense that we still, a
year from now, be recommending opt (ph) in as a default? Which takes me back to my first question,
which I agree with Thomas (ph) that by heightening May (ph) to Shaw (ph) we
require registrars to do either opt (ph) in or out, they can do nothing. But I am just saying, and I’m comfortable
with that for the short term, but in the longer term, the default would be the
minority position. And I wonder if
that’s why, and I wonder if we should therefore, it may be the process – is
there some way to signal that our recommendation is for now, to be revisited,
you know later. Or is that implicit in
the process?
THOMAS (ph):
I think that this entire recommendation is well, marked as something to
be done. Well. OK.
Let me put it differently. We’ve
two primary recommendations to go by this chapter (ph). Recommendation one, and if that is the thing
we should be advancing, is there shall be barred (ph) efforts for marketing
clear bills (ph), or as it is implemented and kind of waiting for 3363 back
(ph) (INAUDIBLE) shall not be used for marketing activities.
COLEMAN:
Yes.
THOMAS (ph):
That’s recommendation one. If
that is adopted, almost everything else (ph) which remains is, I think, 3365,
the thing about passing on to data to third parties which would still be
changed from May (ph) to Shaw (ph).
COLEMAN:
Yes.
THOMAS (ph):
That’s the only one, which may remain in case of primary recommendations
are accepted. For example, what we are
talking about now is if a recommendation against any kind of marketing is, at
this point, not recommended, then at least the following things should be done
and that is remove, extend some of the marketing activities language again, I
think, and in particular opt (ph) our.
I’m sorry. A probability for opt
(ph) in is added in and at least and opt (ph) out marketing provided. That is plan B, so it is something to be
done, instead of a primary recommendation.
And we are recommending any way that the
existing of the back, of the marketing provisions should be revisited in the
future. The other thing (ph) that
should be revisited really is that if it is to be retained as the motion (ph)
of legitimate users to be explored in more detail, I think that makes it pretty
clear that this is an interim solution designed only for a case that I will
remain comfortable or I can bolt for whatever reason, thinks that marketing
user data fact should be preserved.
COLEMAN:
Thank you.
THOMAS (ph):
I hope that was accurate, OK (ph)?
COLEMAN:
Yes.
CADE:
OK. So where are we on that?
MCKEE (ph):
This is Kristy (ph). I’m very
happy.
KAREN:
OK. You know what, I am going to
leave the language as it is, as it has been circulated, and obviously I’ll
circulate it to them; so that people can take a final read of it. Then the next question is something that
Steve (ph) and Thomas (ph) were discussing.
Let me just find it. It is the,
I think, Thomas (ph), you may have resolved this already by, you know, what
your, hold on …
THOMAS (ph):
I think I told them – It is this language, that to the extent that
implementation of the RAA (ph) is provisional.
My executive party would be incompatible with national laws that are
determined to be applicable to such parties.
There cannot be an expectation that factual (ph) provisions will be in
force; necessary reasonable exceptions should be made in enforcing the RAA five
ex (ph) provisions. And I think that
Steve (ph) had an objection on it.
Steve (ph), if I may ask – could you maybe elaborate – what entirely
(ph) is the object of your objection?
METALITZ (ph):
I just don’t think we need to make a sweeping pronouncement of that –
any problem that might arise, any conflict that might arise between the who-is
provision and the national laws. There
is a lot of different national laws. There
is a lot of who-is provisions. I think
it is perfectly adequate for us to say that national laws allow implications
about what information the party can or can’t provide, and leave it that.
THOMAS (ph):
So you would not be satisfied by a restriction of deadline (ph) which
just in time, which –
I’m sorry.
Let me restart the sentence.
So you are not, would not be satisfied with a
restriction of a proposed language to be propound until some kind of a expedite
(ph) state exit (ph) provision is, I mean, is achieved.
METALITZ (ph):
I’m not sure what that means.
THOMAS (ph):
It means that we are suggesting to do further research with national
laws in mind, and which is due to be actually comfortable with them and all
that.
METALITZ (ph):
Yes, we’ve said that. It is
imperative that any ICANN (ph) policy formulated with respect to (INAUDIBLE)
take into account any national laws, which are determined to be
applicable.
THOMAS (ph):
Yes. But we …
METALITZ (ph):
Yes, I said that.
THOMAS (ph):
But we are not in this round of changers reaching that goal. Right?
METALITZ (ph):
No, no we are not. Because we
are not trying to make judgments about what the national laws provide or what,
in fact, they would have. We are just
wagging that this is an issue that has to be taken into account which I think,
is the right way to proceed rather than attempting to quantificate (ph) on
matters that we really don’t have the confidence to quantificate (ph) on.
THOMAS (ph):
I don’t want to quantificate (ph) on this; however, if we are in
agreement that the current policy may create problems for some registrars and
if we are ready to recommend that the policy should change with that kind of
problem in mind or should be investigated that way. And I think it would be properly appropriate that we also say
that until such investigation is being done, there is not a finally (ph) that
the current, it may not be possible to fully unfold the present language.
So this would be a change, restricting it in
time, so to speak.
CADE (?):
And the timeframe that we would be accepting to undertake that
investigation, I think is important to sell out (ph).
THOMAS (ph):
It is important to what, I’m sorry?
CADE (?):
To quantify it. Make it clear
that if there is going to be an investigation, Thomas (ph), then we need to
specify a time frame.
STEVE: You know, we even say back in the
summary of this that the changes that are recommended should be drafted with an
eye toward enforceability and respect for applicable laws and reasonable
enforcement of the new rules be undertaken.
That, you know …
THOMAS:
Yes.
STEVE: What else do we need to say here? We are
saying this is, the national laws are factors that you need to take into
account in enforcement and in drawing up the policy itself. Thomas (ph), I am not sure what you are
trying – exactly what you are trying to prove by committing – trying to commit
ICANN (ph), in advance, to have all these conflicts might be resolved. But I just don’t want to think it is wise to
stake out that position, when we don’t even know concretely what the conflicts
will be.
CADE:
In the further “Work to be done” section, I want to lay down the
prescription that workshop, and I do think that in a workshop we can address
some of this in more detail, that we are trying to devise a policy
recommendation. Do we, if we have that
comment, acknowledged up there, do we really need it here? Because we have captured that – I don’t
think there is any disagreement on the part of the taskforce (ph) that we need
to capture that concept.
KAREN:
I’m happy taking that bracketed language out, because there is a – there
is a recognition that, you know, national laws are sometimes in conflict with
that type of provisions, and that we are looking further at it, we are
investigating it further.
THOMAS (ph):
OK. I think, looking at the, at
the watch – and we are not interested in playing any games here – I trust that
we resolve that language, but let’s keep in mind, that – well, OK. If Karen (ph), do we suggest anywhere that
the recommendations we are making now, should be vigorously, or something like
that, enforced? I don’t think so.
Right?
KAREN (ph):
No. OK. I think it ….
KAREN (ph):
I think …
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Let’s delete it …
KAREN (ph):
I think, I think …
STEVE:
Vigorous enforcement was changed as your request, Thomas (ph), to
reinforce it.
KAREN (ph):
That is right.
THOMAS (ph):
Yes, it was future policy. I
will forthright …
STEVE: We say nothing. We say nothing about enforcement of current
policy – I don’t believe.
THOMAS (ph):
OK. So let us leave it with
that, and just let us keep in mind that we don’t make any change if we, which
would make a pronouncement that would take flexibility away, and not enforcing
things if necessary.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: OK.
CADE:
OK. And then the last issue that
I felt was, Thomas (ph) is raising, whether people who both, who breach those
access agreements should be then deemed ineligible for future access. Since I don’t think any of us have really
thought about this issue, or I don’t think we have gotten any feedback from the
community on this, I think it should be, it is a good point on, and I think it
should be added to our list of medium to moderate recommendations.
MARILYN CADE: What’s the present situation?
THOMAS (ph):
It was actually one of the complaints we got during out telephone
conference (INAUDIBLE) that we were told under current provisions all we can do
when people (INAUDIBLE) is to cancel the account (ph) agreements and they give
us another 10,000 (ph) bucks (ph) and they continue with their abuse (ph), and
that’s not …
MARILYN CADE:
Yes.
THOMAS (ph):
(INAUDIBLE)
MARILYN CADE:
Can we – can we raise it as something we have received but did not, did
not work on because we don’t – we did not have time to thoroughly examine it?
MCKEE (ph):
Hi, this is Kristy (ph). I would
agree with that. I’d like to see this
as a further work item because I think I would really like for people to, you
know, treat it like the wild West and just not let them do it again, but I
think we have to think about it pretty hard …
THOMAS:
Yes.
MCKEE (ph):
… because businesses change, ownership – it could just have been one
employee at that business. There’s so
many circumstances that really further discussion.
THOMAS:
OK.
KAREN:
Agreed.
KAREN:
OK, anyone else? Anything
else? All right. Well, I will make some changes to the current
draft and then send this out again.
MARILYN:
OK, are we ready to go, and – I know we’re running out of time, but I
wanted to know – Kristy (ph) can you still spend some time with us?
MCKEE (ph):
Yes, I can.
MARILYN CADE:
When we go to Kristy’s document
MARILYN CADE:
I’m going to ask (INAUDIBLE). I am crawling through my closet packing but
I will pay attention.
MCKEE (ph):
OK. This is the document where
we are not making consensus stated policy recommendations. OK?
All we’re trying to do here is to uncover everything important about who
is searchability that we’ve uncovered and include it, and this is a major
task. So I would just really love for
people to add – add two and add two and add two as they can and as they think
of things, because at the end of this document, there is a section where we can
simply list things that we think should be added.
And I’ve made a couple of changes to this
document since it was sent out, and I wanted to start with question and that
someone can answer here. On page two
and three I have the relevant provisions of the RAA (ph). I wondered if I couldn’t move those into an
appendix?
THOMAS (ph) (?): Why?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Good idea.
MCKEE (ph):
OK, I’ll go ahead and move those into an appendix so that it’s a six
page document instead of an eight page document, and also I just didn’t like
the placement of that. So, I started
with our, you know, agreement upon consensus thing about the note, so we have
actual consensus on the taskforce survey examined through improved kinds of
improved searchability, centralized public access, the use of data (ph)
different than the domain name, (INAUDIBLE) and the provision of more advanced
database query capabilities. And, so I
just kind of kept that as it was, and then I added a big long note to tell
people we’re not talking about consensus policy, we’re not talking
recommendations, we’re talking about suggestions and recommendations for
further work.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Right.
MCKEE (ph):
All right, and then we go through the RAA (ph) which is going to be
moving to an appendix, and then I have another statement. I just keep on repeating this in the
document, that we are not recommending changes to the RAA (ph), so that nobody
gets upset, and then what I’ve done is I’ve gone to the RAA (ph) and taking the
relevant provisions and given them each a header and a little summary and some
bullet points, and seeing as how all the summaries are not quite finished, I’m
just trying to set up something that could easily be made into a PowerPoint
presentation, that is clear and easy to read, and that addresses our concerns,
and so I just kind of walked through it from the beginning to the end. You know, starting with point 31 and
finishing with the 3 point and three five.
And if anyone has concerns with anything
written here, I would hope that they would just comment on them and move
forward. With regard to 3.31, I
reorganized the bullet points, so there is much better flow now. Before the bullet points kind of made it
confusing because of the way that they were flowed. So I have now – we do not suggest all elements be made into query
keys, followed by, our survey respondents indicated they would like to use the
following elements of query keys, followed by, we do suggest registrants and
those with Nick (ph) handles should be permitted to search their own
information only, followed by, a consideration should be given to those without
Nick (ph) handles who are not registrants, and then a comment that there’s
research needed in this area. I need
some help with this statement, because consideration should be given to those
with Nick (ph) handles who are not registrants, but I’m not really sure how to
state that we really need to continue research in that area, so I just have a
phrase there.
STEVE:
Could you – Kristy (ph), is this an appropriate point to ask questions?
MCKEE (ph):
Sure. Any time.
STEVE:
I think this is newline (ph) release because I don’t remember seeing it
yesterday. What – you sound as though
you’re suggesting that the ability to search on other data elements besides
domain name should be restricted to – at this point to people who are
registrants or have a Nick (ph) handles.
MCKEE (ph):
Yes. We were able to achieve
consensus on that statement in our working group …
STEVE:
OK, well that’s totally contrary to what the survey found, as you
know. Because everybody – many of the
groups in the survey thought that they would like to have that capability, and
it wasn’t just registrants or voter (ph) nicknames (ph).
MCKEE (ph):
Right, which is why we include the consideration should be given to
those without Nic (ph) handles. There’s
so much – so many concerns here, and we don’t want to give the impression that
we’re trying to …
STEVE:
Well, there’s two other factors to take into account. One is the opinion of the ICANN (ph) general
counsel, that this is already required as part of the PORT 43 (ph) who is
searchability today, right now. It’s
not enforced, but that’s the opinion that they gave back in 2000. Second, I do not think there’s a consensus
on this taskforce that allowing people to search by elements other than domain
name is a significant privacy issue.
There are privacy issues throughout this area, but I don’t think that
searchability dramatically – you know, the ability to search and find out, for
example, which domain names all share the primary user or IP address. I’m not sure I see how that increases …
THOMAS (ph):
You may wish to ask (INAUDIBLE).
They have a huge conflict about (INAUDIBLE). There is certainly …
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I heard that presentation, and I didn’t hear
anything that really addressed that question …
MARILYN CADE:
Guys, guys, guys, guys, guys. I
want to …
THOMAS (ph):
It wasn’t convinced (ph). The
only thing I wanted to say is in that area there are some exposed (ph) traps hidden
I think and we should be pretty careful about making any recommendations at
this point. I think we should focus to
catch up to identify issues which have been raised anywhere (INAUDIBLE). Possible benefits as they are perceived by
the beneficiaries. I think that is the
best thing we can do and we shouldn’t get into any struggle from should be
recommend this or is that completely premature?
MARILYN CADE:
Can we make a distinction here as well between Steve (ph), what is –
what we are able to do today, and then whether we’re making a recommendation of
a future change. OK? So, I think what you’re trying to lay out,
Kristy (ph), is that we, you know, the survey respondents did provide certain
data. We’ve received other comments,
they’re not just restricted to the survey responses, but what we’re trying to
do is lay out further work, so I – I don’t think we are changing anything – as
I understand it, we’re not changing what people can do today. You’ll laying out what certain work would be
and what needs to be examined.
STEVE:
I understand that and I have no problem if this is put forward as this
is what some people commented or what some people think, but there are a lot of
statements in here that I don’t think reflect the consensus of the taskforce,
and I’ll have to go through all of them.
MCKEE (ph):
I would be surprised if there were any statements that were consensus
based according to our entire task force.
Our working group three didn’t received very many comments on our last
report, and that’s where a lot of these, you know, our suggestions and
recommends come from our last report.
And it’s kind of like that opt (ph) out thing. If you don’t hear from anybody, then you just assume that it’s OK
…
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Kristy (ph) …
MCKEE (ph):
And so here, I like this because I like that you’re flagging your
concerns, so I’m just going to highlight the concerns here, and we can maybe do
something different with them or not, but please continue.
THOMAS (ph):
One point about – one editorial point Kristy (ph), maybe you may wish to
change language (INAUDIBLE) we recommend other in those places which do not
refer to (INAUDIBLE). I think there
will be a huge issue for several here with language like we suggest and such
and such elements should be available and such and such elements should not be
available. I think it should be
something like, we suggest that, or if – like something like it has been
suggested.
I personally would on the other hand of course
be fine with something like, we’re suggest an investigation of this and
that. But before you go (ph), I don’t
think that any language like recommendation from the taskforce or suggestion
from the taskforce should appear in your (INAUDIBLE).
MCKEE (ph):
OK, so the we recommend and the we suggest is a little bit too strong
unless it’s followed by a kind of pacification statement.
MARILYN CADE:
Actually Kristy (ph), there’s two tongue (ph) anyway because this has
been a non – this is an area that you’ve (INAUDIBLE). This is an area which is all about future work, so language, and
I think that will begin to address Steve (ph), you’re concern and Thomas’ (ph)
as well, language that says the taskforce proposes better work in the following
areas, and then you wouldn’t use. You
would still need to use language that say, that uses that recommendation word.
MCKEE (ph):
Thank you so much. I was working
on that last night, and I said, I give up.
MARILYN:
Can you try that and see if that captures it?
KRISTY: Sure …
MCKEE (ph):
Well, because then I can remove we suggest, we recommend if we just say
that we propose work in the following areas, I can – I don’t even have to use
sentences anymore. I can just use
clauses.
MARILYN:
Exactly, exactly …
MCKEE (ph):
Yes, because I don’t want to pretend that we’re recommending things that
we’re not recommending. I think that
would be a bad thing to do, so I really like that suggestion.
STEVE:
Marilyn, if I may ask. What’s
(INAUDIBLE). Is it really the same
deadline as the consensus policies and action recommendation 104 (ph) or can we
delay this for a week.
CADE:
We can – we can delay it for a week and maybe that’s what I should just
tell Bruce (ph) who’s in relatively frequent contact with me, and what we’ve
decided to do is present a report which focuses on the two areas where policy
changes are being recommended. We will
be hoarding (ph) our report, and posting the second portion of our report two
weeks later. I’ll have to look at that,
because I don’t he can do it in a week.
We’ve got travel for some of us who – but if we did – if we get – if we
post this one by the 30th, if we have to. We post part A, and we need to say part B is coming, and set a
date by which part B is coming. Should
be try to post part B before people go to – go to Amsterdam?
THOMAS (ph):
We should at least try that.
CADE: I
like it. Team, what do you think?
MCKEE (ph):
I’m more comfortable with that.
It’ll give people a better opportunity to add the few (ph), and also to
keep focusing on (INAUDIBLE) and access.
CADE (ph):
And that would help me with Rom’s (ph) report as well. Steve (ph)?
METALITZ (ph):
Sounds good to me.
MCKEE (ph):
OK, how about I skip down to the last two pages of this. What are legitimate uses for searching
(INAUDIBLE) data, because I’m going to change the format above so it better
reflects what we’ve just discussed. And
then we’ll get back to that. So what –
I changed the header. The header was
terrible. The header now reads, “what
are some legitimate uses for searching (INAUDIBLE) data:”
STEVE:
And put legitimate in quotes or something?
MCKEE (ph):
Yes. I will put legitimate in
quotes.
THOMAS (ph):
And then we should really go through and remove the ones that are just
about general query (INAUDIBLE). I
think we should strongly restrict this to advanced searches.
MCKEE (ph):
OK. What about adding, I have a
question before anybody gets too big on this.
What about adding demographic or census based information? Is that appropriate?
STEVE:
The header is where.
MCKEE (ph):
Under this header of what are some legitimate uses for searching through
(ph) this data.
STEVE:
I think Thomas’ (ph) point is well taken that isn’t this supposed to be
focused on enhanced searchability?
MCKEE (ph):
Well, it’s yes. This should all
be focused on – this whole thing should be focused on enhanced
searchability. That’s why the header
was incorrect, because the header had said what are legitimate uses for using
(INAUDIBLE) data, which was incorrect, so that has been corrected to what are
some legitimate uses for searching (INAUDIBLE) data. Because searching …
THOMAS (ph):
(INAUDIBLE).
MCKEE (ph):
I don’t agree with that at all, but OK, I would like to hear an argument
on that.
STEVE:
I’m sorry, say that again. I didn’t
hear you.
THOMAS (ph):
I thought that (INAUDIBLE) will have to remove most of his (INAUDIBLE)
because it’s really argument on general access to who has data, not necessarily
on advanced search …
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: … I’m not sure whether I’m in agreement or
not, but I think we can deal with that – let’s just go through the decisions we
have to made today.
THOMAS (ph):
I’m very comfortable with that.
METALITZ (ph):
I’m going to have to drop off here since it’s about 1:15, but I will
circulate a revised accuracy piece that I hope reflects the conversation and I
try to get that out tonight. Thank you
for obviously quick turnaround …
CADE:
Thanks Steve (ph).
METALITZ (ph):
OK, thank you.
THOMAS (ph):
Marilyn, maybe we should just really try to wrap up and look at the
federal (ph) (INAUDIBLE). You said you
are going to travel, that means (INAUDIBLE) conference call next week?
CADE:
You know, I can do another conference call on Wednesday if that’s needed
– if people feel that that’s needed. I
am just – I’m going to be with my parents.
They expect me to work. They
would shocked if I didn’t.
KRISTY:
You are from the Midwest.
CADE: I
am from the Midwest. So I can do
another conference call on Wednesday, and that may needed, and it is beginning
to sound to me like it is.
THOMAS (ph):
Maybe we should reverse the slot and reverse that conference call mostly
to giving a final nod to one (ph) and four (ph), and I don’t really think we
will have much to …
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes.
THOMAS (ph):
… maybe if we have some more (INAUDIBLE) we can discuss that, and if we
don’t have it then we’ll be ready for our conference call.
MARILYN:
We need to walk through Thomas (ph) how we tie the pieces together. The documentation and the comments, those
things, and I need to finish the drafting of the proposed workshop. I have at least from the guys (ph) here
now. It’s going to take a little push
on our side to make sure that the private sector is involved in, but we have an
agreement that we’re going to have included.
The (INAUDIBLE) have been traveling and not able to get back to me, so I
need to lay something out in the (INAUDIBLE) to be looked at on Wednesday. I’ll try to have something in – I want to
propose something in March at the ICANN (ph) meeting rather than there being
separate things that are being held in other parts of the world that the
taskforce will have difficulty participating in.
OK?
MARILYN:
OK, I will modify the way this way laid out in the beginning …
KRISTY :
And look for, and then I’ll send it back out and I’ll send it out for
comment, and I look forward to everyone just tearing it up.
MARILYN:
And I will reserve the bridge (ph) for.
It might have to be twelve your time.
I’ve got something else that might be interfering.
THOMAS (ph):
Who’s time?
CADE:
My time, right Kristy (ph)?
MCKEE (ph):
No one’s time. Sorry. It may be an hour later.
.
MARILYN:
Thank you Thomas (ph). Thanks to
everyone who’s still on the call. Karen
(ph), thank you, Fran (ph) …
COLEMAN):
Have a nice holiday with your family, Marilyn.
CADE:
And a happy turkey day to both of you …
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Thanks everyone ….
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: … too quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Thanks everyone.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: OK, goodbye.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Bye, bye.
END
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