Re: [wg-e] Translations

[Kilnam Chon <chon@cosmos.kaist.ac.kr>]

bill,

let's look into japanese and arabic first unless german and italian insist
to be included. 

chon

On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 06:06:33AM -0800, Bill Washburn wrote:
> The way I see it, we doubtless have to agree on the pragmatic reality that a
> quite limited number of translation languages is the most that ICANN can
> possibly afford or coordinate in the near term.  I further agree that the UN
> official languages makes sense as a starting point.  I have two concerns,
> however, to express.  First the UN list ignores both Japanese and German--a
> vestige of the World War II origins of the UN, I assume.  This is not
> something to perpetuate, IMO.  I'd propose that at least Japanese needs to
> be included in the list of languages--at least if is true that Japanese
> citizens tend to be monolingual (as is true with most U.S. citizens).  The
> other concern I have is leaving African languages off the list entirely.
> There is precious little ICANN involvement by Africans as it is.  I don't
> relish the idea of leaving the languages of Africa entirely off the list as
> it would seem to be a sure basis of perpetuating under participation by
> citizens of African nations.  
> 
> As far as the situation in terms of ICANN coordination in concerned, I'd
> suggest that we ought to pursue an agreement with Andrew and the ICANN
> board, perhaps, whereby additional funding is sought from Markle (or others)
> to fund professional level translation services for a one year period.  This
> would help ICANN get translation off the ground sooner rather than later;
> would help immensely with the outreach and awareness objectives; and would
> have the side benefit of demonstrating just how translation makes a
> difference financially and politically in the operation and administration
> of ICANN.  
> 
> cheers, bill washburn
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Elliott [mailto:jelliott@tucows.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 9:16 AM
> To: R.Gaetano@iaea.org; bill@realnames.com; wg-e@dnso.org
> Subject: RE: [wg-e] Translations
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, it seems most documents that come out of ICANN are legal in
> nature, and so it will be difficult to expand translation service past 5 or
> 6 languages.  On the other hand, Diane's idea that ICANN could like to
> translated versions which are done on a volunteer level regionally could
> work.  The problem with volunteers is their commitment level - I am the
> perfect example of that as this is my 2nd post to this list in 3 months
> (something which will improve starting today).
> 
> I think officially, ICANN should have translation done into the UN official
> languages, and then have links to unofficial translations done on a regional
> level.  That way, we can get African dialects included, but not have to
> choose who gets to be official or unofficial.  I think the key to unofficial
> translations is funding.  If ICANN can provide some funding for unofficial
> services (some sort of grant program), then it will probably work a bit more
> efficiently than if it was dependent on unpaid volunteer efforts.
> 
> The other problem here is having these efforts coordinated at ICANN.  The
> staff is already overworked and has no time to do this, but we need someone
> to spend a few hours a week making sure this is done properly.
> 
> That is my 2 cents.
> 
> Josh
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-wg-e@dnso.org [mailto:owner-wg-e@dnso.org]On Behalf Of
> > R.Gaetano@iaea.org
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 12:35 AM
> > To: bill@realnames.com; wg-e@dnso.org
> > Subject: RE: [wg-e] [owner-wg-e@dnso.org: BOUNCE wg-e@dnso.org:
> > Non-member submission from [Bill Washburn <bill@realnames.com>] Message
> > too long (>40000 chars)]
> >
> >
> > >
> > > #1 In what languages do you feel the ICANN web site, election
> > > ballots, and
> > > other materials should be translated?  Please order your list
> > > of languages
> > > in priority.  Also, I will assume that if you list only one
> > > language then
> > > you feel that is all ICANN needs to do.  If, on the other
> > > hand, you list
> > > five or 10 or 15 languages, then I will take it that you feel
> > > that is the
> > > number of languages which ICANN must cover.
> > >
> >
> > I believe that the basis should be the UN official languages (with the
> > caveat that different UN Organizations have different official languages),
> > therefore at least English, French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Russian.
> > For a reference, see http://www.un.org/.
> >
> > I also think that we should include other widely used languages, in
> > particular if they are important at a regional level.
> >
> >
> > > #2 How do you believe that translation of the web site and
> > > other materials
> > > should occur?  If you believe it must be done by a commercial
> > > translation
> > > company, please provide any details on a company you know or
> > > feel would be
> > > productive.  If youbelieve it can be done fast enough and
> > > with sufficient
> > > quality by volunteers, please give specifics about how such a
> > > volunteer
> > > system could work over say the next 12 months.  If you
> > > believe there are
> > > non-profit or even government organizations that would be the
> > > best resources
> > > to utilize, please give details what organizations, what
> > > officers, what
> > > locations and so forth you have in mind.
> > >
> >
> > I believe that we have two separate problems: the "official"
> > documents, and
> > the "less official" documentation material (see also comment to #3 below).
> > For official documents, that may have even legal relevance, there is no
> > other way than go to professional translators, but for general
> > documentation
> > we can easily rely on local structures.
> >
> > Please allow me to open a parenthesis.
> > We need to define a "model" for DNSO/ICANN membership and organization
> > before being able to answer this question.
> > If the model is ICANN-Staff-at-headquarter-centric, i.e. if everything is
> > managed centrally from Marina del Rey, well, the only possibility is to
> > collect enough money to have it done professionally (volounteering may be
> > scarce).
> > If, OTOH, the model will be more decentralized, with regional offices and
> > "chapters", that are coordinated from LA but with large authonomy on local
> > (or regional) initiatives, these local chapters will be incentivated to
> > publish material in their own local languages, and will find
> > themselves the
> > best way to do it in a most cost-effective way. Also, volounteering effort
> > will be incentivated in this latter case.
> > The advantage of the second model from the strict "outreach" POV, is that
> > local structures can address the type of material (not only the languages)
> > that are more adapted to the local culture. The "cultural barreer" is not
> > just the language: you can sometimes provide the best translation possible
> > of a document that is foreign to the local cultures, and still make it
> > incomprehensible.
> >
> > I am not sure that to discuss about the structure of DNSO/ICANN
> > (centralized
> > vs. decentralised) is in the charter of wg-e, but sure it is a
> > key question
> > that changes the approach of outreach.
> >
> >
> > > #3 I understand that ICANN feels a legal concern/obligation
> > > to ensure that
> > > translations are certifiably correct.  By what means do you
> > > suggest this
> > > kind of "verification of accuracy" occur?  Do you have or do
> > > you know others
> > > who have experience in this matter?  (On this particular
> > > point I am going to
> > > ask a colleague, Francis Gurry at  WIPO if he has any suggestions.)
> > >
> >
> > As noted above, the problem with documents that imply legal
> > obligations will
> > be separated from the mass of documents for information. Legal documents
> > will be a tiny minority (at least I hope) of the material that will be
> > produced.
> > For legal material, I believe that ICANN will never accept to engage in
> > obligations to have more than a handful of languages (like, for instance,
> > the UN official languages).
> >
> > As for the experience on this subject, the reference should be the
> > International Organizations, with the UN System in first place. They all
> > have professional translators in the official languages, that have to be
> > accredited (pretty much as you have "official" translators accredited to
> > every Embassy or Consulate). BTW, the translation is one major
> > item of cost
> > in the UN budget, so be aware of the economical constraints if we go the
> > path of professional services.
> >
> > Please let me know if you want more details on the translation. I can
> > provide the IAEA data (I assume they are public, I will check), and assume
> > also that the UN Secretariat in NY will have a documentation service that
> > has data about the translation (how it is done, how much does it
> > cost, ...).
> >
> >
> > >     The reason I am asking these questions is because I
> > > believe that Working
> > > Group E can contribute very effectively to the Global
> > > Outreach and Awareness
> > > mandate of the DNSO and to the ICANN Membership at Large
> > > Implementation Task
> > > Force work by answering or recommending answers, at least.
> > > Also, I believe
> > > this will help us immensely to begin to formulate some
> > > estimates of costs to
> > > be shouldered during the next 12 months in the translation of
> > > materials, web
> > > site translation, maintenance, and so on.  Of course I am
> > > only aiming to
> > > help in the larger effort of our group and I sincerely
> > > apologize if I have
> > > made a mistake in missing a question or if I have spoken out of turn.
> > > Thanks you all very much for bearing with me in this long
> > > message and I hope
> > > that you can find time to answer these questions.
> > >
> > > Respectfully, bill washburn
> > >
> > > Bill Washburn
> > > Chief Policy Officer
> > > RealNames Corp.
> > > bill@realnames.com
> > > voice: +1 650 298 5520
> > > [snip]
> > >