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Re: [ga] Re: iCANN's protection
On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:00:28 -0700, Dave Crocker <dhc2@dcrocker.net>
wrote:
>At 03:07 AM 4/17/2001, DPF wrote:
>>It would have been more useful to have pointed out the flaws in
>>Michael's reasoning IMO that merely saying not all lawyers agree (a
>>truism if I have heard one).
>
>You were given the single most important flaw yet you are dismissing it
>cavalierly.
>
>It is not merely that some lawyers disagree with another lawyer, but that
>lawyers practising in the relevant area and with a legal responsibility for
>getting the topic handled properly disagree with a lawyer who is
>essentially a lone voice.
I am not dismissing with it. I am not debating it because I don't disagree
with it. It is a fact that the GAO has not agreed on this point. I have never
in fact even stated that I agree with Michael's position or paper. I just took
issue with the suggestion that because it was written by Michael and some
people found it difficult to understand that it should be given little credence.
>That's not just a matter of some disagreement, but a matter of who is
>likely to be correct.
Well it is far from unknown for government lawyers to be wrong. I seem to
recall DOJ lawyers arguing the CDA was constitutional.
>
>> >By the way, when something is difficult to understand, it is less likely
>> >that it can be validated.
>>
>>Difficult to understand though is in the eye of the beholder.
>
>In fact that is not correct. There are plenty of objective and valid ways
>to assess comprehension difficult. It is easy enough, in fact, that
>Microsoft Word has a tool for assessing readability.
But a legal article is not designed for the public who IIRC has an average
reading age of 12. It may be directed to other legal professionals.
>> >Prof. Froomkin's biases are clear and consistent. He seeks to criticize
>> >ICANN. He seeks to do it vigorously and at every turn. His motives might
>> >be less clear, though the instant he starts getting public exposure for his
>> >efforts, then it is clear that he is serving to promote his career.
>>
>>Well if this is not a personal attack I do not know what is.
>
>In case you had not noticed, referencing personal matters has become the
>norm on this list. Even outright slander has become acceptable.
I agree that this is regrettable. All I do for my part is try (and no doubt
not always sucessfully) to refrain from doing so.
>Further you chose to assert that Prof. Froomkin IS objective, by citing a
>criterion of "commercial interest". That invites a response that looks for
>other factors.
Commercial interest are fairly easy to verify. An assertion that one is a
critic to promote one's career is all but impossible to disprove so is really
quite unfair to make IMO.
>>You claim that because he is a constant and publicised critic his
>>motivation is venal and self serving - namely promoting his career,
>
>My language was rather stronger than what you describe. Since you chose to
>miss the strength of it, I'll state it even more strongly: Prof. Froomkin
>seeks ONLY to criticize and he manipulates facts towards his
>arguments. That is called "not playing fair".
I have made the point that in your public posts you have ONLY defended ICANN so
this can be seen as merely the reverse. I agree however one is more credible
if one both criticises and praises. As for manipulating facts towards an
argument - well that is a crime every single person who has ever argued does.
>However it is worth making the matter more clear:
>
>1. A constructive participant is not ONLY a critic. A constructive
>participant shows behavior that is contingent. The positions they take
>depends upon the matters under discussion. If they only attack and never
>support, they have some agenda other that constructive participation.
I think there is a role for both. Certainly I like to play the role of a
constructive participant within organisations, even if fairly unhappy with what
they are doing. But there is a useful role for those who continually remind
you that you could be doing things better, even if one does not agree with them.
As regards this particular case I haven't done eough research to verify if what
you say is correct - that Michael has never praised any decisions of ICANN.
>3. A constructive participant refrains from inflammatory language, since
>such language only serves to entrench positions and make constructive
>negotiation impossible.
Many constructive participants do use inflammatory language from time to time.
It is more a case of how often.
>> >1. Prof. Froomkin's paper is interesting from an academic standpoint, but
>> >has received no demonstration of legal force. The best that can be said
>> >about it is that graduate law student deemed it worthy of publication.
>>
>>One wonders if you try to be insulting.
>
>Alas, no. The paper is cited as if its mere existence in a law journal
>means that its contents are compelling legal positions. It is therefore
>important to make clear what the document does and does not mean, in terms
>of its use in an ICANN discussion.
I hadn't really seen anyone treating it as gospel. I thought it was fairly
obvious it is merely an opinion.
>You continue to dismiss the significant point that multiple lawyers who had
>the formal and official job -- that is, they were obligated -- to get the
>issues correct have entirely different views about ICANN legitimacy than
>does this lone professor at a University. That lone professor has no legal
>obligation to get matters right. He is free to toss off any line of attack
>that sounds interesting.
I used to think Michael was a lone voice also. I note however that more than
one Professor is a co-editor of icannwatch.
DPF
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