[nc-transfer] NC Transfer TF minutes Aug. 22 02
Please find attached html version of Transfert Task Force minutes August 22nd 2002 -- DNSO SecretariatTitle: TRANSFER TASK FORCE TRANSFER TASK FORCE August 22, 2002
ATTENDEES:
MARILYN CADE: CHRISTINE RUSSO ROSS RADER ROM MOHAN DAN HALLORAN GRANT FORSYTH DAN STEINBERG GARRICK
APOLOGIES: RICK SHERA
CADE: We’re going to start out with a presentation by Ross and Rom. And then I’ve laid out for everyone -- which you should be getting -- the process that I want to follow on how we address whether or not we’re going to do any work -- first of all, being no filibustering.
ROSS Rom – what’s the status of the escrow task force? OK – can we start with discussion of the work that Rom, Ross and Jeff were gong to be leading? And I had asked Grant to be available to you to provide user input, so can I turn it over to you?
ROSS : Sure – absolutely. Sue, have we – we had a cost schedule for Tuesday. On that call was – let me run through the participants on the drafting team. It’s myself, Grant, Rick Wesson, Rob Mohan and Jeff Newman.
Each brings a pretty unique perspective to the table so the conversation was pretty useful. We had a call on Tuesday with the goal of putting together a document for today -- that we did not meet – that would integrate some of the realities around EPP registries both thick and thin into a document that was really modeled around the thinner processes that there is on that.
So we’ve got a preliminary document that’s rather unrefined at this point. We’re waiting on a few more edits from the – from the registry constituency.
But I would expect – maybe, Rom, you can certainly chime in here, we should be able to distribute a draft for comments early Monday.
MOHAN: I can certainly confirm that. And, Ross, I promise you we will get you our edits shortly.
So that’s my status report, folks. Any questions?
CADE: Yes – I think maybe a little more detail on that would be helpful for all of us.
DAN HALLORAN joins the call. Actually could you guys tell us maybe a little bit more about the ...
ROSS : Some of the specific changes or ...
CADE: Yes. What you see would be recommended and if you see any – I – if you see any areas where you think in particular are going to need to be input from the users so that we are prepared for that. And maybe talk a little bit -- I think at one point you had indicated that you thought you’d have a draft, we’d do one round internally and then we ought to be ready to have an open call on it.
So I want to talk a little bit about that as well.
ROSS: OK – sure. So going through the specific changes – any issues components – it was – we’ve added two new issues – one being the -- process that mentioned the ROP (ph) – the current system that -- as well as the auth code registry trumping – quote – unquote – the lock provisions in the – in the EPP system.
So what we’re saying there is that -- presentation of authorization -- whether that be an auth code or a valid form of authorization – that regardless of the status of the lock, the domain name should be transferred or not transferred.
We haven’t addressed that – we’ve raised that as an issue. So that’s something the task force will need to definitely discuss.
CADE: And can I just ask you there – and I’m probably going to have to ask you questions as we go through this because I’m not looking at a document and I have a simple mind when it comes to this stuff.
So at this point the auth code would be accepted as the proof of authority – of legitimate authority ...
ROSS: Correct.
CADE: ... or other documentation. Is that what you said?
ROSS: No. Strictly in the EPP registry the auth code would be the only valid form of authorization.
CADE: I see.
GRANT: Which would be the overriding? I don’t know if it’s only but it would be overriding. If you don’t have it you can’t – you can’t transfer or do transactions.
ROSS: Right.
CADE: And so you addressed somewhere in your document – as I keep appealing to everyone – you addressed the idea that you’ll have simple -- like me as registrants who will have lost their auth code, forgotten who their registrar is.
ROSS: We did discuss – we actually had a really good conversation about EPP. Unfortunately -- transfers.
Now it is very much the case that registries and registrars will provide or re-issue those codes upon request. Perhaps the recommendation of the task force is that that be institutionalized in some way might be appropriate.
CADE: Yes.
ROSS: But we really tried to stick to the issue of transfers so we didn’t dive down deep or make any specific statements about that type of behavior.
CADE: Yes. My philosophy is if a registrant can lose something they will, if they can be confused they will – that we’re basically the typical customer out there.
ROSS: Yes.
CADE: Yes.
MOHAN: I guess my – one of my approaches to that is that currently in EPP based registries the contract between the registry and the registrars requires that a registrar provide the auth code upon request.
And I think we make some mention of that in the document but not so far as to say that it must be – the problem right now is one of enforcement – if the registrar refuses to give them.
ROSS: And actually that’s a great point that you bring up there, Rom, is that part of the drafting the registrars are going through are surrounding – especially in an EPP specific way – surrounding some of the enforcement mechanisms that they need to have at their disposal.
Right now it’s largely a – it’s a baseball bat or a slap on the wrist and there’s nothing in between.
CADE: And there’s no place right now in your document or is there – it’s a good thing Dan is here to defend is here to defend himself when I make this suggestion. Is there a place in your document that says if a registrant encounters a refusal that this is their complaint process or their appeal process?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Not addressed.
GRANT: It’s not addressed. And I – from an empirical point of view – what we do here in the registry is – again, we had this discuss in the call on Tuesday. We – I think we even had this discussion last week, Marilyn.
As a registry we often try to help registrars in the case of an intransigent registrar. And many times it does actually work.
CADE: Yes – I know. What I’m describing to you, Rob, is the registrants you just tried to help actually knew who you were and knew how to get to you.
I’m asking a different question of – the registrant who doesn’t know where to go -- would there be a need to have a place on the I-10 Web site that is informational only that says, “Here’s how you can find out where to go.”
ROSS: I think it’s a matter of implementation. I’m not sure if that is a matter of policy or not but it would certainly be useful.
CADE: Do you see what I mean, Rom MOHAN: I see what you say. And subtly that kind of information would have value particularly as it pertains to an important transaction for the registrant. They may be likely to know the I-10 Web site. So – yes – I certainly see that.
GRANT: Can I just say that if I’m a registrant and I have no knowledge of this process and I get approached by some registrar who convinces me I should switch to them. And if that registrar starts the process and somehow because of my ignorance, loss of information and everything else I can’t do it then that registrar will help me I’m sure.
And if they can’t they should go away – they should help me to do that transfer. And if it gets to a sticky point then they’re the ones who are going to push me in the right direction. If they’re not going to do that then they’re not going to win the transfer and go away.
CADE: yes.
ROSS And that’s perfectly valid, but I think where you run into problems around kick starting the process is actually on the losing registrar side.
I’m dealing with thousands of transfers under Comment Nord currently whereby I have full knowledge that the registrant did not authorize the transfer in fact.
They have very little knowledge – they have little or no avenues to find out if their name has been slandered or not. They don’t have a clear place to go because their name is gone – it’s not with us anymore.
Obviously their new registrar is not going to be too likely to help them out. What do they do? It’s literally taken us – what we had to do as registrars is send e-mails to literally thousands of people saying, “Is your name where it’s supposed to be?”
And right now that’s the only mechanism available. So I don’t know if allowing the industry care taking to look after it would be sufficient.
GRANT: Ross , the further complication is the development for some registrars intentionally to replace registrant admin tech information with their own information.
ROSS: Yes.
CADE: And tell us why that happens again?
GRANT: I’m not a registrar so I only have opinions but no facts on that particular issue.
ROSS: There are really two motivations – one’s valid and one’s invalid.
There’s a reseller– a company named Name Zero. What they do is they actually give you the name for free as long as you use their services.
You don’t actually have any claim to the domain name at any point in time. It’s well displayed.
They do a very, very good job of insuring the registrant knows that they’re not actually the registrant – they’re just using their services -- offers.
In other cases the motivations are less clear. Usually they’re not invalid they’re replacing this information perhaps to make up for the inefficient processes somewhere, to hold the customers hostage – there’s any number of reasons – none of them are particularly pleasant.
CADE: There’s one other thing that occurs to me as to why that might happen. There are some registrants who – in order to insure anonymity -- Rom, if you put your other task force hat on – in the -- task force.
MOHAN: Yes. You’re right. I doubt – this is purely an opinion, Marilyn.
CADE: Right.
MOHAN: But my sense is that at least from what I’ve seen there are registrars who do this so that – quote – unquote – they want to protect their registrants from arcane technology, e-mails, etc that they get.
I’ve also had a registrar who has come to me and said, “Rom, we do this because we know that the names are being mined and then there are direct mails and spams going out.” And our registrants come to us and accuse of us helping spam.
And so we’re trying to decrease spam for our customers.
CADE: Very interesting. I did want to ask that question because in the – in the -- task force we had discussed the idea that ISPs might replace the contact information with their own information in order to provide anonymity.
MOHAN: Yes – you’re right. And the push back I’ve gotten from a couple of places, actually from some law enforcement areas where the enforcers say, “You cannot do that.”
CADE: Interesting. That’s – so, anyway, Grant ...
GRANT: From a registrar perspective that behavior will essentially break any process that relies on that data being -- that transfers.
GRANT: I guess what I’m saying, Ross, is it seems to be a trend that’s only gaining momentum – not decreasing momentum and therefore it has direct relevance to transfers that depend upon that mechanism being in place.
ROSS: Yes. Going back to these thousands of registrants that are trying to get repatriated right now, we can’t even do a transfer back. Assuming we were willing to pay for it to get these things back ...
ROSS: ... we can’t actually initiated the process because there’s no e-mails addresses in the other registrars’ lists.
ROSS: We can’t verify – right.
CADE: We need to flag that. And it’s on your mind but I think the task force needs to really flag that as one of the issues that we may need to have a recommendation about because we actually could have in the Whois task force come up with a competing or contradictory recommendation, Rom.
MOHAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I just think – I brought it up here, Marilyn, because I think these two issues are particularly intertwined.
CADE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: And you have the issue security of data versus accuracy of data. And if the data’s inaccurate it has especially, in the thin registry world direct impact on transfers.
And the thick registry world – because there is an auth code the issue is not as ...
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: In the EPP world.?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I’m sorry – yes – I stand corrected – in the EPP world but – that using auth codes – having that data be hidden or be otherwise confiscated does not impact transfers in any direct manner.
CADE: I think this is a very helpful discussed. Is there anyone else – Grant did you want to follow up? Is there anyone else who wanted to ask the question about this particular part of it? Because I want to ask Ross and Rom to go back to walking us through some of the issues that they see that the task force will need to be aware of and be prepared to comment on and then talk about an open call and average.
GRANT I have two thoughts. One – I’ll try to get around to reading -- which I haven’t done as yet. You sent me a list which I haven’t been able to open yet.
One thought I had is that it would be useful if we – if in that document we preface it with a set of issues, which -- rather than a whole set of scenarios, which could go on for ages – but a set of issues such as this question of registrars inserting their own contact information into who is.
The other thought, though, is – and this is where I’m behind the eight ball with regard to practices – but I thought it reads registrant – or – yes. Every registration would have a code – and that’s not the case. Is that correct?
Ross: It’s absolutely not the case – exactly. Some registrars have assigned the same codes to thousands of registrants or hundreds of registrants.
ROSS: Actually I’m just talking second hand. Why don’t I let Rom explain some of the issues around that?
MOHAN: Sure. And, again, we have some discussion of that in the document.
In the early days – it’s no longer as prevalent as it used to be. But in the early days of auth code usage last year Dial Info was the first to introduce it and registrars had never really encountered it before.
There were a number of cases where registrars created one code, an example – my password was the auth code. And they assigned that single auth code to all of the names to all registrants.
As a result, if you were one registrant who had that auth code you could apply that auth code across any other domain that was registered or sponsored by that particular registrar.
That’s clearly a usage education issue and we learned it pretty quickly here. And we’ve done a bunch of outreach with registrars especially the early ones to help them modify the auth codes. But I’m sure there are still some that exist.
It’s interlinked with who issues in the auth code.
If the auth code is issued by a registrar who is not fully informed, you run into issues like these.
If, on the other hand, an auth code is issued by a registry, which is also a proposal that is just out there – a registry could then insure that each auth code is unique.
Some – many registrars do not like that approach because in some cases there are some registrars who are taken of code and then will link it and make it the same password that a customer actually uses to access that registrar – their account on a registrar thereby making it an easy user experience.
It’s a fully complex topic but if I have to break it down into component parts – a education required to registrars to insure that the same auth code is not used multiple times and there should be a guideline that goes into our -- into the best practices document that suggests to the registrar that they assign unique auth codes especially make sure that auth codes do not cross across two registrants.
In other words, do not share the same secret password across two registrants.
So that’s a specific – two specific items in that area.
ROSS: So if there’s no further questions on those points I’ll move on a bit.
He had a pretty good discussion around the principles pertaining to the documents. There were originally two general principles – there still is a series of general principles.
We added three actually – excuse me. The first being that auth codes must be produced upon request -- this is the registrar that issued that code – must produce that auth code to the registrant when they ask for it.
And it may be as a task force we may want to put some boundaries on it. We think 72 hours is a reasonable time So it’s just the general sense that we’ve tried to capture there.
The next principle that we added was that registrars hold – which is a – is one of the facilities to ensure payments
Registrar hold is an appropriate way to insure payments – not acknowledging transfers and no-release of authenticode users.
The last principle that we dropped in was that pre-established credit may be used as a form of authorization – suggesting ...
We didn’t have time to fully flush out that thought. So I’d much prefer to leave that off the table right now for discussion.
CADE: Ross One – the register hold is an appropriate way to insure payments?
ROSS: Yes.
CADE: And I’m sorry – what were the other two – even the one that we’re not going to discuss?
ROSS: So the three were codes – authentical codes must be produced upon request ...
CADE: Right.
ROSS: .If asked for them the registrar must give them out.
CADE: Right.
ROSS: The second was that registrar hold is an appropriate way to insure payment ...
CADE: Right.
ROSS: ... registration – matching and non-release of authentical codes is not.
And the third was that pre-established credentials may be used as a form of authorization.
CADE: OK. I have a question for you about whether you – when you say that register hold is an appropriate way to insure payment, there are two other instances that come to my mind when a name can’t be transferred.
And that would be in the case of a – I think you may have identified one, which is a financial dispute – a bill that hasn’t been paid.
ROSS: Yes.
CADE: But the second one would be in the case of a UDRP?
ROSS: Yes – UDRP pending bankruptcy non-payment. And I believe there is a fourth.
CADE: Right.
ROSS: But certainly the point there was that registrar hold is an appropriate facility that already exists to enforce those terms.
CADE: Right.
ROSS: Non-release of the name or non-transfer – these are – these are inappropriate. Using registrar lock is inappropriate, all right?
Does that make some sense?
CADE: No.
HALLORAN: Does registrar hold imply registrar lock? Can you initiate a transfer on a name that’s under registrar-able?
ROSS: No, you can’t. If it’s taken under the zone it doesn’t resolve. For all intensive purposes it doesn’t exist.
MOHAN: And in the thick registry the same thing works. You cannot transfer.
ROSS: Specific to your “P” command that we -- that I wrote down for the notes was modify of the same set status equals registrar hold. ?
ROSS (ph): ... not familiar with the spec enough. But -- so whatever it is it’s captured by that command. It’s an inappropriate facility to make sure that people pay or if they’re in -- under UDRP or what.
HALLORAN: Got it.
ROSS: OK?
CADE: So – yes – I think I understand now – the point just being that the names of – the status the name is at is different but the name is not being transferred.
Register hold – the name that – what happens to the name during register hold – registrar – we’re talking registrar hold?
ROSS: There’s a couple of levels of hold. hold lock registry lock. CADE: OK.
ROSS: ... registry hold lock and registrar lock.
Registrar lock is the weakest lock. There’s nothing you can add to the name. You can’t modify the records but it’s still resolved.
You cannot – you essentially cannot change the state of the name is the effect.
CADE: So you could not complete a transfer?
ROSS: Correct.
CADE: Right. But you also cannot update information?
ROSS: Correct. So you would lock – unlock every time you want (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: There is some kind of -- registry and I can talk to them separately.
ROSS: The next level is the registrar hold. It is the same effect as registrar lock except it also picks the name out of its own file. So it’s not resolve – the Web site somewhere or the e-mail doesn’t go through.
And third is at the registry level – the super lock hits the registry lock. And who – they can pretty much make that domain name and do whatever they want but nobody else can.
CADE: And is that true in both the thin registry and the thick registry?
ROSS: I was just going to ask Rom what the difference in the EPP registry was. Between thick versus thin ...
CADE: Yes.
ROSS: ... it’s because it’s quite likely that we will have a thin EPP registry very soon.
MOHAN: That’s right. And I’ll just talk to – for the purposes of this call thick and EPP synonymous. But in an EPP based registry if someone – there’s actually one more lock that is available, which is a client lock where a client can request a registrar to place a name on lock – on hold, if you will. It’s rarely used.
When a name – when a name does get locked in a – in a -- other than registry lock or a registrar lock ...
Even in the registrar lock the registrar does have the ability to go modify information.
The current responsive registrar can modify information for that particular domain name especially – the fields at BC that we often modify are the host fields. The DNS fields often get modified.
So those are the main differences.
I don’t know – I’m not completely familiar with what things the RFP system restricts changes to.
Ross, isn’t it true that if a name goes on lock even in the RFP system you can still go in as a registrar and modify the host?
ROSS: No. You actually have to issue it on lock command.
MOHAN: OK.
ROSS: Yes. It’s literally – within the RFP environment it’s very blunt.
MOHAN: It’s not granular then?
ROSS: ... with the EPP you’ve got some flexibility around what’s locked – what’s not because ...
MOHAN: Right. And in EPP there is -- Marilyn, this isn’t a spec but there is a – there is a pretty highly defined level of granularity. And it’s both a good thing and a bad thing actually.
HALLORAN: . Can I ask the -- just the reasoning behind the principal that it’s OK to hold the domain but not lock the domain to insure payment.
ROSS: No – it was NACKing a non-release, Dan (ph). Not nacking at the transfer.
In other words, we’ve already sent a renewal invoice therefore the demand hasn’t been paid for so we’re nacking this transfer request.
HALLORAN: OK.
ROSS: And this is -- and these words as written are very blunt right now. I’ve not done any snipping around them. That’s also inappropriate to release and authentical (ph) code. If you – do you know what I’m saying?
So if the demand had been paid for in the initial period you’ve still got the first 60 days by which the -- you’ve got that whole chart back protection buffer in the first 60 days.
HALLORAN: Right.
ROSS: Using the technology transfers nacking and non-released authenticodes to hold them back so it goes into expire is simply inappropriate.
If you have a legitimate payment – right – with the customer ...
HALLORAN: We’re talking before expiration or after expiration?
ROSS: Now? Sorry – as it relates to nack and non-release?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: In general or before ...
HALLORAN: Can you state again the principles you enunciated – the reasons it’s not OK to – or ways that are not OK to insure payment?
ROSS: You’ll just rethink the principle itself?
HALLORAN: Right.
ROSS: Modified domain set stats equals registrar on hold is an appropriate way to insure payment.
Knack and non-release of authenical codes is not.
HALLORAN: And to insure payment you mean to insure payment of a renewal fee?
ROSS: Don’t read too much into the words. Don’t read too much into the words. I haven’t – we haven’t gone through that.
HALLORAN: OK – I’m just trying to get too fine and it’s an early draft.
ROSS: Yes. There’s – yes – there’s no capitals on any of the letters ...
HALLORAN: OK.
ROSS: ... yet or anything.
So – but really what we’re trying to capture there is simply that if you have a legitimate payment issue with the customer – with the registrar – that there is facilities available to you to insure that both parties get what they want.
Simply not honoring the wishes of the registrant by not – by simply nacking transfers or not releasing the authenticodes is an inappropriate way to get payment.
And that’s really targeted at that (INAUDIBLE) phenomenon.
HALLORAN: So nacking – in other words, nacking prior to expiration because of invoices due is inappropriate – that’s the principle?
ROSS: Correct.
HALLORAN: How about nacking because the renewal invoice is due ... prior to expiration?
ROSS: ... that’s a sticky one. I don’t have a lot of mandate around that with the constituency – i.e., I haven’t asked them.
My personal feeling is that even in that post expiry period there’s no reason why a customer shouldn’t still have domain portability.
Just because they’ve chosen not to take me doesn’t mean that they can’t choose to -- somebody else.
Where it gets sticky, though, is around the – what’s – the refund process that some of the registries are using that may see a registrar – a registrant gets the same service that they would if they had registered or transferred prior to the expiring.
They ...
HALLORAN: OK -- I understand.
ROSS: Right. But that is a live issue, in other words.
HALLORAN: I think – can I – Marilyn, I don’t want to go off the topic here but I think this is right where the intersection of transfers and deletes happens.
CADE: Yes – I do, too. And I think that we need to – I was just thinking actually that this is what we need to think about when we go to the next phase of our discussion. We need to think what we call a convergence issue. Yes – so I’m comfortable to flag that.
ROSS: And that pretty much captures most of the changes that we’ve got documented to date.
As I mentioned earlier the registries are working on some – what we need to do is modify under loosing registrar redrafts. A lot of these payment are needed there
CADE: Yes. And I know I keep raising this at various points but you are – how are you addressing the role of the intermediary, which I referenced earlier as – if the ISPs are out there putting their own contact information in.
ROSS: Yes. There’s not a lot we can do to regulate a portion of the industry that has no contractual ties or even casual ties with ICCAN.
CADE: But they have contractual ties with the registrars, don’t they?
ROSS: In some cases I’d say – in other cases maybe not. It could be as simple as becoming an Amazon affiliate in some cases.
I don’t know if you are familiar with that process but literally you would enter Amazon’s Web site, grab a link of code from them, embed that into your Web site and – boom – you’re an Amazon affiliate.
CADE: And is Amazon a registrar?
ROSS: No. I’m just using – it’s as easy to become an affiliate of a registrar as it is to become an affiliate of Amazon – sorry.
No – I don’t think they sell demands. They sell everything else but ...
CADE: Actually they were selling – it was eBay that was selling a country code a few weeks ago.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Marilyn, you mean there was a country code being auctioned on eBay.
CADE: Right – that’s right.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: ... comes to a free country code or ...
CADE: When I went back and looked for it – I got a call about it. I would have called Dan and Louis immediately. But when I went back and looked for it, it was no longer there.
So I assume that ...
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Are you talking about the – I think Verisign was auctioning premium Dot CC names and Dot -- whatever the other one is named.
CADE: Yes. And I think it was -- it was a mis-conveyance of what was actually being auctioned.
ROSS: So back to transfers. The – but back to the integrated suppliers. I think what we can do is be very strong with the policy as it relates to registrars and registrants now.
And that need flow down to whomever has a relationship with those – with those registrars just by virtue of the implementation.
CADE: Well, we’re going to have that problem in -- Rob, I think we’re going to have this problem as well.
What we’ve done this ICANN is set up an accreditation process that at the time it was set up and I – separate from having commented on what would be – why an accreditation process would be needed I don’t think we actually envisioned the creative business model the competition has enabled to emerge.
And I’m not complaining about those business models at all – I’m merely noting that the accreditation process didn’t take into account something that we live with in a different space over in the online world where we are online providers.
In the U.S. we have avoided privacy regulation by agreeing to accept a code of conduct that we sign onto and put on our Web site and that includes how we – what we let third parties do with data we transfer to them.
And I’m not trying to dictate this at all – I’m just noting that to have a card – it seems to me if it doesn’t include some interaction with the intermediaries.
ROSS: To be quite honest, Marilyn, I would be very uncomfortable if any scope of this process was in the hands of an intermediate. It’s perfectly reasonable I believe for an intermediate Web host – ISP or whoever – to deal with the customer, to initiate the transfer transaction.
But in order to insure the integrity of the process behind it – i.e., that the authorization is coming from the registrant – keeping that chain of evidence together, if you will, that they be – that responsibility need be placed squarely on the shoulders of the registrar.
CADE: doesn’t that translate to the idea that the registrar would have to have some kind of an agreement like Becktel and IFCs have with downstream ISPs?
ROSS: Yes.
CADE: And does that translate into an assumption that when I can accredit a registrar that there’s a thin framework of baseline requirements that they are going to accept third party – if they’re going to – if they’re going to act as a wholesaler?
ROSS: Yes – absolutely. I can certainly speak from two customers’ perspectives that it was obvious that our business model was unanticipated. But primarily that we were the accredited entity – we were on the hook for living up to the obligations of the contract.
That it was mandatory for us to put agreements in place with our -- with our intermediates. That it was mandatory for us to insure that they conducted their business in various ways to insure that none of these – that we got the information that we needed to conduct whatever transaction but also the registry and I Can (ph) themselves.
And forcing those contracts with them is never easy but that’s the – that’s the burden of our model and we’re quite happy with that.
So – yes – to answer both of your questions.
CADE: Do you guys see – from any of the rest of you who are on the phone – this issue of intermediaries? Does that – does that make sense to you? Are there other comments anyone wants to raise about that particular issue?
HALLORAN: Marilyn, I’m not – this is Dan again. I’m not – and maybe I’m just being dense – I’m not sure what the issue is or what’s the concern here?
CADE: Well, just take as an example, Dan any ISP could decide in order to protect their client relationship – they could decide for a number of reasons.
They could decide in order to protect their client relationship to change the contact information to their own contact information. They could do that because their customer is seeking anonymity and so the contact appears to be the ISP as opposed to the actual registrar all the way through.
HALLORAN : And are they – if I understand right then they are the contract and I don’t understand what’s the problem or what’s the issue?
CADE: The data is now not accurate in the Who Is database.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: By definition it is accurate because they are the contact.
CADE: It depends on whether they’ve been authorized to change all of the data. They have been authorized to change the technical data but it depends on whether they’ve been authorized to change all of the data.
And what I am saying to you is third parties might have a separate agenda for why they changed that information. And the registrant might actually not go but it is in the Who Is database.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: But even in that – but even in that case, Marilyn, if the registrar receives notice from the customer that their data’s been tampered with – and, Dan, you can correct me if I’m wrong – you’re much closer to the contract than I am. But I believe that there is an obligation for the registrar to intervene.
There’s a couple of clauses – one of which is the Who Is data must be accurate, somebody’s provided notice that the Who Is data is accurate. So there’s a 15 day period in which that data need to be rectified, which then goes away.
Two, there’s also a – when you receive notice from a customer that data is to be update, you’ve got a five day period in which you can actually get it done.
There’s a couple things in there that actually I believe achieve what it is that you’re trying to say.
HALLORAN: Yes – I don’t think an intermediary third party – what you’re calling an intermediary – could sit between the registrant and the registrar and impose their will – enforce certain data to be in there against the registrant’s wishes.
CADE: I’m not assuming they do that with a knowledgeable registrant, Dan (ph). Again, I was asking a question about the registrants who might be relatively uninformed about this and whether there was a need to have any kind of criteria.
Rom was saying that -- take the lead to have criteria and to interact with the intermediary seriously. I was asking the border question about – I’m not assuming that -- is the only registrar who has a doctrine model. Most registrars have at least some intermediaries.
CADE: Right.
ROSS: It would be nice if we were the only ones but ...
CADE: OK. Are we roughly through with the overview and ... .
CADE: Can we talk about the timelines and when we could have – when you guys think there could be an open call and what the purpose of an open call would be and who we would invite and all of those things?
ROSS: the roadmap as I see it right now is that the registries will – it would be very nice if they could get back to you tomorrow with their modifications.
I can spend a couple of hours over the weekend -- some of the intermediaries. I want to give the to Grant for a few days to make sure that there’s some registrant/user perspective in these.
There’s no reason why we can’t table adoption for comment in time for the next call ...
CADE: Let me ...
ROSS: ... unless Heather, Grant or Rom have any objections to that timeline.
CADE: let me ask Mark McFadden .
CADE: Would it be helpful for us to send this to you as well since you wear a slightly different hat. So they would have both Grant as a user and you as an ISP representative looking at it?
MCFADDEN: Yes – I would be happy to do that. I have that intermediary hat sometimes so – sure.
Marilyn CADE Great. I’ll add you to the list then, Mark .The more the merrier.
CADE: So that means next Thursday there would be documents for the task force to walk through in detail, which would mean that the following week Next Thursday is the last week in August, right? So we could – the first week in September – that Thursday – actually I need to propose a change in the date.
I’ve called some of you but not all of you. I need to propose that we move the meeting to Wednesday. And I apologize but I have very – I have no leeway on the dates because of the ITU -- costs and the fact that my government has summoned me.
And so if anyone is – I really apologize about the need to change the date but if we could accommodate changing the date of the standing call to Wednesday at this time – and I did check it with a couple of folks who aren’t on the call – I would greatly appreciate it.
I’m unfortunately locked in a room doing ITU -- briefing work every Tuesday and Thursday.
CHRISTINE : I would love it if we could move it to 3:00 or a different time. I have a standing meeting on Wednesdays at every – at 2:00. I probably could move but ...
CADE: 3:00, Christine , would be 7:00 a.m. Grant’s time and Rick Scherer’s time so I need to ask Grant to comment on that.
GRANT: Yes – that would be problematic in that so much as 10:00 a.m. is a more humane time to concentrate on these things but it’ll run into other meetings if it goes over two hours
CADE: Right. What about I had talked to Jeff and it was possible for Jeff and possible for Rick.
Christine , is it a possibility that you could change your Wednesday – that you could change your Wednesday meeting?
CHRISTINE: Yes – probably not without too much pain or for at least a few weeks I could have someone stand in on notice from me here. So probably – that’s fine.
CADE: OK. If we could do that then. Then a week from -- entire document next Wednesday.
And then the following Wednesday, which is I believe September the ..4th.
CADE: OK. Then we would have an open call. And the open call I would propose to do what we have done in the past. I’ll get ports and you all should – we would post it – you all should feel free to invite everyone from your constituency that’s interested. And – but we would also make it open to any other interested parties.
And we typically do get interested parties from the GA. But most – the areas that this would allow us to address is additional input from registrars, which I think is important for us to talk about.
But it needs to be clear and understandable to registrants. One – we tend to get people who have an opinion about the impact on registrants but we don’t actually get a lot of registrants.
And Grant and I might be able to – and I think by publicizing this to the ISPCP, the gTLDs and the IP constituency ahead of time maybe we can get people who actually are acting – they really are registrants.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I’m a registrant, Marilyn.
CADE: Thank God we have one person to ...
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I’d be surprised if nobody on the call wasn’t a registrant, Marilyn.
CADE: We all are but some of you will remember ...
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: ... registrar or registrants but ...
CADE: ... some of you will remember from past discussions that there was an expression of concern that we might not be really representative.
But – so the open call will be the 4th. That would mean following the 4th, Rom, I think we would ask your group to turn around any comments and the goal would be to have a document to review on the next Wednesday call and then to post it for public comment, which would mean we are – we need to assess what areas your document doesn’t address and that would need to have any further work done so that recommendations could be put forward on that.
Our goal would be to at least post your document for public comment on Wednesday 4 September – I don’t know if we need a full week.
We have the open call, we have another discussion and then we try to post it maybe by the following Tuesday.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: So this is three weeks in?
CADE: Yes. Which puts us into the – this is now the beginning of the third week of September, right?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes.
CADE: Yes – I think that the remaining item that we need to tease out of this on our call next week, again, would be what areas are not addressed by your document that the task force would need to provide any further comment on?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Excellent.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Ross , can I just toss one quick thing in?
ROSS : ... It’s an invitation to contact me off-line about it.
You mentioned a compliance issue like a current compliance issue. I don’t want to muddy ...
You said you have a case with lots of missing Who Is ...
ROSS: Trust me you’ll be getting a note about this.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: ... missing e-mail addresses. I want to hear about this.
ROSS: You’ll be getting a note about it. I’ll ring you after the call.
CADE: OK. Any other comments from the group on work on this particular work item?
OK. A second topic of this discussion – and I sent you guys an e-mail – I will pull together and send to everyone. I know you’re all impressed by the fact that I’ve read our entire archive – always gets a round of applause for me from the task force every time I mention that.
But I’ve done that again. And I just want to give people some sites so it will be a little easier for them to go to. And I will put those together and give you the dates and the archives to go look at and the other sites and e-mails those out to folks.
In the previous discussions that the task force has had about the issue of deletions. And I suggested to you all the idea for – that I’d like to use now for the next 30 minutes to discuss a copy of the deletions.
And this is a discussion and I tried to set it up on the call last week. This is a discussion about what, the task force should be doing on deletions and what should the recommendations of the task force be to the names council about what, if anything, this task force should be doing and how deletions could be or should be addressed.
So the first part of the discussion is not an opportunity to argue about whether we’re going to do anything. We’ll get to that later. The first part of the discussion is what are the issues related to deletions?
And I’ve asked Dan to kick this off for us by sharing his views of a range of issues that he has seen as staff on deletions.
And before I do that I just want to see if anyone new has joined the call that hasn’t announced themselves. No.
And, Rom, I’ve invited you to stay. I hope you’ll be able to for the rest of the call. I know you may have planned to have other things to do with your life but you’d be very welcome to stay. And I think since Jeff can’t be here I had mentioned to him yesterday that I would invite you to stay on the call.
MOHAN: Thanks, Marilyn. Yes – Jeff had mentioned that to me so I do throw in my alendar for the next hour.
CADE: Great. Dan , can we turn this over to you?
HALLORAN: Sure, Marilyn. I think we just conveniently flagged a few minutes ago one thing where transfers and completions clearly intersect and that’s the fact that transfer requests just tend to happen a lot either right before expiration or right after expiration and therefore it’s closely tied in with deletion access.
When you delete – whether you allow transfers before expiration, after expiration, before deletion. So I think you can’t help but talk about transfers without talking about expiration and deletion.
Other deletion issues, which start to go further away from transfers but I’ll leave it to other people to decide the wisdom of when and where to discuss it.
I think during the WLS discussion in this task force there was a lot of talk about a uniform deletion policy or uniform deletion practices.
Right now in the registrar federation agreement there’s a vague statement about registrars must delete names if the registrar doesn’t pay a renewal fee. But there’s no current date or deadline specified. So some of the registrars delete the names within days after expiration. Some registrars delete within 30 days. Some do it right before 45 days in order to get the refund of the registry fee. And some registrars in practice take months. Or sometimes people can find cases of names that expired years ago that still haven’t be deleted. So that’s another issue.
And we get – I can get frustrated calls if you want to be next in line if you want to register one of these names. And we can’t tell them, “Yes – this name will be deleted in X number of days,” because right now there is no uniform practice.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: ... is it the case then that within the contract or contracts that there is no explicit requirement that a registrar must delete domain name?
HALLORAN: There is an explicit requirement that a registrar – if the registrant does not pay a renewal fee the registrar must cancel the registration is what it says.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: But not actually delete the registration. HALLORAN: Delete is a technical – it’s a command issue and it doesn’t say the word “delete” in the -- in the current agreement – it just says you must cancel the registration.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Right. So it would either be to delete the registration or to revoke the license with the registrar – not necessarily both.
HALLORAN: it gets really dicey and I’ll just stick with what it says. You have to cancel the registration. And we have come down on the registrars who we feel tried to implement schemes that were doing things other than canceling the registration such as giving the name off to somebody else or taking it for their own selves.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Got you.
HALLORAN: But it doesn’t say too much. But in practice if you don’t delete it you’re probably going to be doing something that is highly involved.
CADE: And, again, you’re – if I could just go back to what the – would the assumption, Dan , be – is it fair to have an assumption that the intent of the registrar of the accreditation agreement – even though it may be vague and subject to interpretation – that the intent was – do you believe the intent was that the name would be deleted?
HALLORAN : I guess that’s it’s impossible to – I wasn’t even here at the time so you’d probably have to ask somebody else what the intent was. But ...
CADE: Yes.
HALLORAN: ... the way I read it you can hardly do anything but delete the registration and not violate the agreement.
CADE: Right.
HALLORAN: But it still doesn’t say the word “delete.”
CADE: I see.
CADE: Great, Dan Steinberg – we’re just getting ready to talk. I have asked Dan Halloran to brief us on what issues that he, as the staff – and he sees most of these issues – what issues he thought related to deletions. And he’s just started that briefing. So it’s good timing for you to join us.
And we are just going to hear from him first and then have a discussion of – from the task force members about what we think we’ve already commented on in terms of these issues and if there are any others that we see.
We are not talking at this point about what we are going to do – we’re just trying to go through a data gathering at this time on the call and then we’ll talk about what we’re going to do.
So, Dan, let me go back to you.
HALLORAN: OK. So I think the rest of the issues are easy to ...
GARRICK: Hi – it’s Garrick.
CADE: Hi, Garrick .
GARRICK: How are you?
CADE: I’m fine. Sorry we’re late getting you here. You and Dan have just been added in and Dan Halloran is just doing a brief ...
GARRICK: OK.
CADE: ... presentation on deletions. Thank you.
HALLORAN : So I think I actually got this idea from Ross I think that you can divide an idea of a timeline for the lifeline of a registration. And when we were talking about issues surrounding deletes, you can – if you look at the timeline there’s the registration period, which is the one year or two years or 10 years that the registrant pays the registrar for.
And then the day after that time ends then you’re in this post registration period.
So there’s – the next life stage of that registration is the grace period after – grace period can be a basic term – but the period after the registration term ends and before the registrar issues the delete command.
And that’s the period I was talking about where there currently is no uniform lifecycle there. Some registrars do days, some do weeks, some do months.
Then after the registrar gets around to issuing their delete request, we have this whole other issue of what happens then. How long does the registry sit on the name?
Under the current what’s called the old system in some cases the registry immediately flipped the name back to make it available for re-registration. There was no grace period in effect.
In some cases there was a five day delete pending period. And through the redemption grace period talks and action and proposal that was adopted and is being implemented, that’s now been standardized – that there will now be a 30 day period in between deletion and when it becomes available for re-registration.
HALLORAN: So that ... ... aspect has been addressed I think ...
CADE: OK. But I have a point.
HALLORAN: ... in terms of policy or at least in terms of software – not policy I guess.
CADE: You said in some cases it was immediately put back, in other cases it was five days – you mean within the same registry there were – there were various behaviors?
HALLORAN: That’s correct.
CADE: I see – OK.
HALLORAN: So under the current – if you go look at it today and the way it still works today until the redemption grace period gets implemented – if a registrar deletes a name and it’s within the – let’s say the – I’m drawing a blank here.
Ross, what’s the name of the 45 day period after ...
CHRISTINE : It’s the 45 day grace period.
HALLORAN: Yes – the auto renew grace period.
CHRISTINE : Right.
ROSS : Yes.
HALLORAN: So if – right now if a name – the way it works is if a name expires the registry will automatically renew it and then it’s in a 45 day auto renew grace period.
If the registrar deletes the name during that period it – there – it’s immediately available for re-registration by any registrar.
If the name is not within the auto renew grace period or any other applicable grace period it goes into a five day delete pending period. And at the end of the five days then it gets dropped and is available for registration.
So the redemption grace period – we’re going to standardized that. Almost all names will be subject to a 30 day registry holding period.
CADE: And so it won’t be five plus 30 – it will be 30?
HALLORAN: So it will be – actually it’s too complicated. Further it will be 30 days of redemption grace period where the – if the name was found to be inadvertently deleted it can be undeleted. Then there will be ...
CADE: Right.
HALLORAN: ... a five day notice or further holding period to provide equal notice to all registrars the name is actually going to delete.
CADE: So that five days is not actually intended to serve the registrant – that is in turn intended to serve the registrar. Is that right?
HALLORAN: To serve the demand for being next in line for it. It gives all registrars and potential registrants equal notice that in five days X name will drop with certainty.
And that leads into the third post ...
CADE: Wait – sorry – I’ve got it – drops with certainty. And how is that notification done?
HALLORAN : In the implementation proposal – and this is all being worked out in how the projects will really read. But there will be something like lists available for registrars to download that will list all names that will drop on a certain date or will list ...
CADE: Right.
HALLORAN: ... all names that deleted on a certain so that it will be available to all registrars. And presumably they would make that information available to their customers which names will become available.
CADE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Do any of the – do any of the registries lead to the …
HALLORAN: Delete in real-time?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: In other words, the – as the domain name becomes – as the delete command is issued by the registrar that the registry still automatically does that drop rather than ...
HALLORAN: Dropped? That’s a good question.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Rather than ...
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: We actually do that if the registrar requests the name to be deleted is dropped from the registry immediately.
HALLORAN: So you don’t offer batches or anything like that?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: No. But then keep in mind that we also don’t have the same scale as volume of issues as various (INAUDIBLE) registry does.
HALLORAN: Somebody else had a question. STEINBERG : I’m a little off here. Can you give me an example what kind of event would lead to something being in the five day pool as opposed to the other pools?
HALLORAN : If – I’m sorry – you mean after redemption grace?
CHRISTINE : If a name is deleted in any period other than the auto renew 45 day grace period, it goes into the five day hold.
STEINBERG OK. What would cause it to be deleted other than the auto renew period?
HALLORAN Say, if a registrar deleted a name 60 days after it had been renewed it would go into this five day delete pending period.
STEINBERG :OK.
HALLORAN :Or, say, it’s six months into your registration term you decided to delete a name, it would go into the five day delete pending period.
STEINBERG: OK -- thanks.
CADE: And it would -- it would – because -- wait a minute. The registrar decides to delete a name and it doesn’t go into the redemption grace period?
CHRISTINE :It will ...
HALLORAN :No – we’re confusing ...
CHRISTINE:... as it is today.
HALLORAN :Yes.
CHRISTINE :I hope that everyone is clear on the fact that at least Verisign (ph) registry does these deletes in adherence with the particular business rules that apply to whatever time period we’re talking about. It’s not as if we sit on a name, as Dan (ph) indicated.
HALLORAN: I was talking about registrars.
CHRISTINE :OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Is it – Dan (ph), are you describing facilities that are compared across all registrars?
For instance, do new levels and affiliates use the – that pending period policy or is it a Verisign specific policy?
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: It applies ...
HALLORAN: Rom do you want to comment? But I think the delete pending period ...
MOHAN :It’s uniform, Dan and Ross. It applies even at new level. It applies in the new TLDs (ph) as well as an existing TDL
And redemption rates – just for clarification – RGP (ph) is yet to be implemented. So what Dan (ph) is talking is in another 30 days. It’s not what is being implemented now.
HALLORAN (ph): I’m talking about the proposed – under the proposal which is due to be implemented.
So I think – I don’t want to say that it’s completely uniform, Ross (ph), because I think there are some difference. For instance, in Dot Name (ph) I think they don’t even have an auto renew base period. They don’t even have an auto renew right now. So it’s not uniform completely. I’m probably talking about 99 percent of the cases.
And I think at least as far as the auto renew goes and the deleting any periods and grace periods, that’s going to be the same in comment or the biz (ph) info ...
STEINBERG (ph): Is there view as to whether this (INAUDIBLE) falls within registry policy skills or I Can (ph) policy skills.
HALLORAN (ph): Are you talking about the ...
STEINBERG (ph): In other words, is the ...
HALLORAN (ph): ... actual specifications and timelines?
STEINBERG (ph): Yes. You mentioned Dot Names (ph) (INAUDIBLE) different than the rest or for a whole bunch of reasons which I’m sure would be great.
But is it ICANN’s view that this is very much industry dependent business rules and that these things are recommended but optional? Or is it ...
HALLORAN (ph): Well, I think it was actually the -- they’re part of the contract between the registry operator and ICANN (ph).
STEINBERG (ph): ... see this as here’s this common structure.
HALLORAN (ph): Yes. And as much – I don’t think it was – for instance, there’s – like I just said, there’s a difference in Dot Name (ph). So I think maybe that was subject to negotiation. But it is – it is at least all documented and so it’s applied equally.
And, like Christine (ph) said, they just follow the rule book. They don’t make it up as they go. They don’t have an impression – they just – whatever the specifications say. If a name was deleted on Day X, it gets dropped on Day Y.
STEINBERG (ph): Is any variance desirable or ...
HALLORAN (ph): I think actually – I think the Dot Name (ph) people, if anything, are going to back track on that. In the abstract I can see it would be good to try out different models for this. And if we had a bunch of TLDs (ph) doing different things that might be neat.
But there’s also something to be said for knowing how it’s going to work in all cases.
STEINBERG (ph): Right – OK.
MOHAN (ph): This is Rob (ph). I strongly recommend against too much variation. It’s too confusing as it is in the – in the domain registration area.
CADE: And this is Marilyn. And I will tell you from a – Grant (ph) can speak to this – efficiency point of view. But I will tell you from the business user point of view – they hate variance -- they’re businesses.
STEINBERG (ph): Yes – I don’t see from a registrant’s point of view why you would want to have to grapple with different rules for different ...
If you have a Dot Info (ph) name, a Dot Com (ph) name, a Dot (ph) whatever name ...
CADE: Right.
STEINBERG (ph): ... why you would want to have different behaviors going on with it.
STEINBERG (ph): I think it also makes it a little easier to deal with those elements that try to gain the system if they have to try to work with one set of – just one consistent set of rules rather than try to arbitrage across multiple set of rules.
CADE: OK – so back to – we may have – we may have confused you there, Dan (ph). Where are you in your issue identification?
HALLORAN (ph): I think I was ready to go into the third issue, which is where WLS (ph) came in, which is what sorts of policies apply or what sorts of services are available for what happens to names after they go through stages one and two – after they have been deleted, after they were on their hold period, what happens next?
So that’s the third bundle of issues, policies, services. And this task force has already gone into that in assessing the WLS (ph) proposal. And who knows what other work remains to be done there.
And I think that’s the whole delete timeline/policy space. Does that make sense? Questions or other issues or areas I didn’t think of?
CADE: The one that we had touched on earlier – the gray area when a name is – when a name has some other activity associated with it, it’s in a UDIT (ph), it’s in a financial dispute, it is in a lawsuit.
HALLORAN (ph): OK – so that’s a carve-out in the current registrar accreditation agreement. It say – let me pull it up exactly. I’m talking about Section 375 (ph) of the registrar accreditation agreement.
And if you don’t mind I’ll read it. It says, “Registrars shall register registered names to registered name holders only for fixed periods. At the conclusion of the registration period failure by or on behalf of the registered name holder to pay a renewal fee within the time specified and a second notice or (INAUDIBLE) shall, in the absence of extenuating circumstances, result in cancellation of the registration.” Period.
“In the event that I can adopt the specification or policy concerning procedures for handling expiration of registrations, registrar shall abide by that specification or policy.”
So we don’t have – in that last sentence – “In the event can adopt policy concerning procedures for handling expirations” – we don’t have that policy yet. So – but that – certainly the rest of that is in effect.
So registrar have to delete – have to cancel these registrations in the absence of extenuating circumstances. And those circumstances aren’t defined in the – in the policy there or in the agreement provision.
Some of them that come up, however, are things like payment disputes where if it comes to – a registrar doesn’t want to delete a name on – if there’s a pending dispute over whether they paid their renewal fee.
Or if in some cases a registrar won’t want to delete a name – the current registrant might not have paid their renewal fee but there might be a pending lawsuit over who owns the right to the name. And the – and the registrar may have told the clerk that they won’t do anything with the name until the lawsuit is decided.
And then there’s – so that’s another exceptional circumstance that might prevent the registrar from deleting a name even though the registrant may not pay the renewal fee.
Another one might be bankruptcy where the registrar – and this is very – there are tons of jurisdictions and it might vary depending on the -- where the registrant and the registrar are located. But if the registrant is bankrupt and hasn’t paid their renewal fee, the registrar might be hesitant to cancel the service because of concerns that they might be breaking some bankruptcy ...
So there are lots of extenuating circumstances where it’s – and they’re provided for in the current policy – in the current provisions. But presumably, if you want to make some kind of uniform policy you have to have carve-outs or just leave that a gray area for extenuating circumstances.
CADE: I see – right. And let me see if I have the other notes. Anybody – anyone else have any thoughts for Dan (ph) about other ...
Have we identified the issue, Dan (ph), in the WLS (ph) – the task force – actually the next thing I was going to go to was talking about the areas that the task force has already commented on. So that’s where I’d like to go next unless anyone has anything to add to Dan’s (ph) list of possible issues related to deletion?
But the issues that I think the registrars have already concentrated on – excuse me – the (INAUDIBLE) have already commented on include the need for a uniform policy that we actually recommended as a part of the WLS (ph) recommendation. And that I believe is – that is one area that we have commented on.
And going back through the topic of deletions – the task force was sent by the main council -- the deletion issue, possible solutions and the WLS (ph). And we at one point had a submission from the ITC (ph), which I have printed out and have scanned through.
We had a submission from the ITC (ph) about some of the issues that they were concerned about related to the deletions. And I think much of that reflected in the discussions related to WLS (ph) concerns about the need for a standard policy and what the purpose of the standard policy was.
Other comments about what the task force has commented on so far in terms of deletions? And, as I said, I will send you guys a list of sites that I found where it was discussed in detail in either the minutes or in the reports.
Sorry about that. Someone is calling me at home – how rude of them. Other comments?
What I thought we would do then is talk about what the task forces sees from the issues that Dan (ph) has listed in the previous discussion that we had had – what we think the priorities are in relation to these issues and then I wanted to talk about ...
And maybe we’ll switch this and talk about what the options are of getting the issues addressed ranging from work by this task force, work by a working group that we might ask to have established to work with us on particular issues, the creation of other task forces, the idea that really staff could play a role in drafting comments – input that could be considered by either this task force or other task forces.
But I’d like to just suggest that – reality having – the reality of what’s going on in the I Can (ph) reform looks to me a little bit like the following. There’s a draft policy development process that has been posted for comment. And I would speculate – and this is merely speculation – that after Shanghai board meeting that the board will want to establish the timeframe for the change to the new organizational structure, which is presently proposed, which is actually the recreation of a GNSO (ph) policy council with many different characteristics than the existing policy council.
I am merely speculating that a date will be picked to give time to make that change work in the present GNSO (ph) will need to be closed down or processed for transmigrating it into new processes thought about.
And the more the work can be closed off and then any new work restarted within the new process is probably the easiest.
Having gone through mergers and acquisitions and other things of that nature that’s my speculation.
The – that would lead me to believe that I think we should all keep in mind the idea that any work we do consistent with our previous statement about our objectives would be to conclude work for a final posting and input through the Shanghai meeting and then to complete any work shortly after that meeting because there could be a contingent to have an open forum of some kind on the transcript issue.
And I think, Dan (ph), we could try to invite Stewart (ph). Maybe you could talk to Stewart (ph) about how he wants to handle that conversation with the task force. And we could possibly invite him – either he could work with you and have you bring back recommendation and discussion in or he can join us as a guest at next Wednesday’s call?
HALLORAN (ph): I’m skeptical about whether he could join us but if ...
CADE: I know.
HALLORAN (ph): Maybe we could – maybe you and I could discuss this after.
CADE: OK.
HALLORAN (ph): Maybe I have an e-mail that I could forward to him or ...
CADE: Sure – and we could figure out how to do that. But I – he and I had – and I told the task force – he and I have had an agreement to talk about what a public forum on transfers might look like. And I want to be sure that we – depending on the timeframe and the other issues that are being addressed, I want to be sure we’re addressing and responsive to his views on that.
But – so I’m just laying out for the task force the idea that we need to be consistent with our goal of concluding our recommendation on transfers. And at the time we were talking of – on the part of deletions that we were going to address – short – have it in recommendation format after public comment by the time of the Shanghai meeting so that it can be concluded.
Can we open this up to a discussion about what do we -- what do we view -- think the options are for getting the issues addressed that Dan (ph) has identified and that have been previously discussed and what are the pros and cons of each of those options?
One option being the task force continues to work on certain elements of the -- of the issues. The task force recommends the creation of a adjacent working group to deal with the technical implementation issues. The task force recommends that a different task force be chartered. Or we empower Dan (ph) to do all of the drafting and really comment on it.
Those are the options that came to my mind. And I didn’t review the last one with Dan (ph) so he’s probably going hang up on us. Sorry, Dan (ph).
HALLORAN (ph): I’ll get to that. Normally ...
CADE: Thoughts on this?
CHRISTINE (ph): Marilyn, when you say working groups – do you mean a working group of this task force? Can you define – I’m not sure what a working group is?
CADE: Well, for instance, one thing that came to my mind, Christine (ph), as I did my flow analysis of this was to think about – let’s say hypothetically that this task force would – say, the standard deletion policy area is the issues that this task force has already commented on, let them work on, lend its recommendation to.
And then as we go through the list of items that Dan (ph) has talked us through, let’s say, hypothetically this task force could say we believe that this task force is the right place to address that issue.
My belief would be that there would be a technical element – and this is where Rom and Ross (ph) can maybe comment. There would be a technical implementation element associated to the implementation of a standard deletion policy.
And so a working group might be chartered to – that might incorporate perhaps – and I’m making all of this up as I go here. A working group might be chartered that would include the registry registrar participants but with other participants from the technical community similar to what was drawn together for the redemption grace period technical and limitations.
And that work could be done very quickly ...
CADE: I’m talking about a technical draft team ...
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Like a subcommittee?
CADE: ... that might have some representation from the task force.
CADE: But with other participation just to review ...
CHRISTINE (ph): OK – thanks.
CADE: The other – the other idea might be that the task force would say the only thing that needs to be done to address that issue is a technical working group.
So depending on the issue – I think the responsibility of the task force is to make a recommendation since we do have – and if you -- if you guys take the time to read through our documentation we have operated and have made statements that we are addressing deletions.
We have in our – we told the board that, we told the names council that, we accepted that assignment. If we are refining our assignment -- which I am suggesting to the task force they need to think about -- then we need to make a recommendation for what we are going to do or not going to do.
MOHAN (ph): Just to be clear – when you were talking about the various issues that Dan (ph) has raised – the way – when I listened in to what Dan (ph) was reasoning they – in general I -- would I be right in characterizing them as issues relating to deletes? Would that be accurate?
CADE: I think they are issues related to deletions and in some cases they have a direct impact on transfers.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Right.
CADE: And in other cases they might not have a direct impact on transfers. And I think that one way to divide the baby would be to think about that. What’s modularized here? What issue doesn’t have – and actually, Dan (ph), one of the – one of the areas your staff might contribute here mould be to – for instance, this is -- I think you mentioned it. If there’s a uniform deletion policy – the question of whether there should be – whether we should continue the extenuating circumstances and just carry that into the uniform deletion policy.
That doesn’t – I think that could be a very short discussion in the task force if there were – if that were a proposal that were on the table to consider as opposed to going around and doing a lot of review on it that that might be undertaken in a fairly short discussion based on the staff expertise that’s telling us what the experience has been in the present environment and whether the staffing could make sense to include it in a uniform solution policy.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Something like that, Marilyn -- those – I went through the exceptional circumstances. Those are largely – those are either antidotal things I bumped into or things I imagined what could be exceptional circumstances. But I think it might be helpful to hear from registrars what are the circumstances – what kinds of things do prevent them from deleting.
So if a group was going to be trying to draft a uniform policy they might want to use that.
CADE: Right. Do you all hear any comments on the options for getting the work done?
MOHAN (ph): Marilyn, this is Rob (ph). It sounds to me like creating a working group for the technical implementation might be somewhat cart before the horse because it seems like the policy perspective hasn’t be broke down yet. So it -- that’s just my sense that it might be a tad bit premature. It may have value later on but not right now.
CADE: Yes – I wasn’t envisioning it as being launched now – I was – I was asking the question, Rob (ph), of did the group think that that would be at – if there’s a policy being recommended did the group think that that would be a way to get additional resources into the work and not try to take on something that expertise didn’t necessarily exist but to acknowledge from the beginning that that would be needed.
MOHAN : Right.
CADE: Does that make better sense?
MOHAN (ph): Yes, it does. And historically such implementations have been – what I have seen is that the actual implementation itself defers from one company to another or one registrar or registry to another. But the general standard I think is where the focus ought to be on.
CADE: OK. Christine (ph), I had talked with Jeff . I had actually asked him to draft something that describes the position of the registry constituency and I think maybe he didn’t have a chance to do that.
But he had indicated that he would defer to you to make any statements from the registry constituency.
CHRISTINE (ph): I don’t think I really have anything new to add other than what we’ve been saying. Again, we don’t feel that this task force is the appropriate forum for this issue. We don’t – we don’t agree that this was in our mandate from the names council and we do think that setting up a different task force with diversity of people on this new issue would be best. The same thing ...
CADE: Well, I think what we were talking about is that there were a range of issues related to deletions. Is that – is the position of the constituency an umbrella statement that incorporates anything that has to do with deletions?
CHRISTINE (ph): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: You can’t use the D word in this task force, Marilyn.
CADE: I apparently can’t. OK – we have heard from other constituencies that they do feel that the task force has previously has been assigned the issue of deletions and has already done some work in particular on the issue of the need for a uniform deletion policy.
So should I show – we should show that the registry constituency is opposed to even the work on the standard deletions policy?
CHRISTINE (ph): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Marilyn -- if I could just jump in. I don’t want to – I don’t want to – stay out of the middle of what this task force’s scope is and who decides it and all of that. But I think it’s -- everyone can agree that this task force did already say that there should be a uniform policy concerning handling deleted names.
CHRISTINE (ph): That’s true – we did as it related to our previous discussions. What I’m saying is that we didn’t – we didn’t feel that this task force is the forum for deciding what that policy ...
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Right – so that’s where we’re at, you mean? And there is a placeholder in here that says there -- if a policy is adopted all registrars will follow it. So the question is – how big of a job is it to create uniform policy? And how much input needs to be done? How much disagreement will there be? Is this the right group to do it? Just a lot of big questions there.
Will it require a whole new set of surveys input – talking to registrants, talking to registrars, talking to registries? How big of a job is it? And what do you have in mind?
I’m just trying to focus on what is actually at stake here instead of just ...
CADE: Right. Comments from anyone else? We had laid out in a previous discussion what we – how we thought we would proceed, which was basically to do – to create – to begin this work – the extension related to a standard deletion policy and include the input from the community pretty much in the same way that we were trying to conclude the work on the transfers issue but in parallel.
It does – it will take cooperation from all of the constituencies regardless of where the work is done.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: And one other thing that I would like just to toss in is that I think mainly what we would be talking about – if you create a uniform policy concerning handling expired names you’re talking imposing new requirements or a new uniform set of procedures on registrars.
I don’t know that we’ve heard that much from registrars about what -- whether they think there should be a uniform policy, whether the registrars think this is the appropriate time and place to craft it. I think it -- back and forth between the user community and maybe the registry constituency about this but I don’t know that registrars – either Ross (ph) or the constituency as a whole will weigh in on that.
ROSS (ph): Well, certainly our constituency – I have no understanding of what constituency -- whether it be uniform policy, non-uniform policy – whatever.
If I had to put anything on record on this particular subject it would be that we have been waiting for policy around transfers for 18 months. Anything that expedites that -- including building off of this discussion with the resolution -- deferral that gets us that transfers policy quicker is a good thing.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Yes – I have to way – just in my role as a liaison for the registrars I would agree that probably it’s universal among the registrars that the first priority is to fix transfers and then – and then creating a uniform policy on the expired domains would be nice or something but secondarily important to that.
ROSS (ph): And I’ll -- and I’ll repeat that three times just for emphasis.
CADE: Yes – I think that’s well understood. I won’t attempt to articulate for all of the users but the IPC (ph) is on record and the vote of the task force is pretty clear on the reason that they put into the WLS (ph) recommendation the need for a standard deletion policy is that I believe that the user constituencies see a significant link between deletions and transfers and other things that go on in relation to the services that are provided to users.
So I think that sense of priority on the part of the registrars is both understood and respected in relation to transfers but that there is a view on the part of the user constituency I believe that they see a link between the need for standard deletion and it’s impact on transfers.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: And …
GRANT (ph): Grant (ph) here. I’ve been following the discussion back and forth on this and my question is – is it the registry’s concern that by leaving the matter of consideration of a deletion policy – by leaving that with this task force that will impede – one, the production of a policy on transfers and, two, ultimately the delay of producing a policy on deletions?
Or is it the concern of the registries that they don’t think deletions should be considered at all?
CHRISTINE (ph): To the contrary, Grant (ph). We think that the issue of deletions is a very important one and one that should be studied. What we have been saying was that ideally a task force could be set up right now and run concurrently with what this task force is doing on transfers.
And in my mind you get the best of both worlds. You have competent, able people close to the issue working on deletions and another set of competent, able people close to the issue working on transfers.
GRANT (ph): Have the registries put a positive proposal to the names council that – along the lines that a separate task force be established in order to look at deletions in parallel with the work being done with transfers in order to achieve quicker outcomes on both?
CHRISTINE (ph): I’m sorry – your question was – have we – have we discussed that with the names council?
GRANT (ph): No. Has the registry constituency put a proposal to the names council that deletions – that another task force be established to look at deletions in parallel with the work being done with this task force in order that policy can be developed for both transfers and deletions in a quicker timeframe?
I see no constructive policies suggesting that another task force be established – all I’ve seen is questioning whether this task force should do deletions.
CHRISTINE (ph): Well, I think one necessarily precedes the other.
GRANT (ph): Well, perhaps you may think that but I had to ask the question because I wasn’t sure of the motivation for not wishing to have this task force do deletions. That is not obvious to me. And I think that would be very constructive.
CHRISTINE (ph): But, again -- but the thought process is a couple of things. One, that I think our goal should be to continue to work on and to finish transfers. This issue has been going on for far too long.
And to take up a whole other issue, which is going to take up a lot of people’s time is just going to impede our work on transfers. And, two, if things – to me that the scope of this task force seems to be increasing at every blink. Transfers and wait lists and now deletes. And before you know it we’re going to be the task force taking on every issue relating to anything having to do with domain names.
CADE: Christine (ph), I really -- I really have to object to that last statement. I’ve heard that by e-mail from three places over the past two days and I think that’s an unfair statement about this task force and its work.
WLS (ph) and deletions were referred to this task force and the task force is trying to do the best job it can. I had – I think Grant’s (ph) suggestion is a very positive suggestion.
CHRISTINE (ph): I do, too. I’m just -- Marilyn, I’m not trying to argue this issue all over again – I was just trying to answer Grant’s (ph) question.
I understand what you’re saying, Marilyn.
CADE: I had asked Jeff (ph) something along those lines, Grant (ph), to try to put in writing to the task force – a positive recommendation. And I think he wasn’t able to do that. But I think constructive recommendations about how a policy can be achieved on both in a short timeframe is – has to be examined.
The -- points that have to be examined is whether every other constituency is able to resource two task forces and evolution and reform activities and prepare for the Shanghai meeting when most constituencies are spread very thin right now.
GRANT (ph): Marilyn – sorry – I didn’t want to invoke a discussion on this. All I wanted to do was clarify from my point of view – one, what was the motivation of the registries’ constituency attack I guess on the concept of this task force doing deletions.
And given it is what Christine (ph) has revealed – a concern about getting policy out for both – then my suggestion is I see no positive suggestion that an alternative task force be established.
And if that where they want to go then make that suggestion and then the issues that you’re raising now, Marilyn, can come to bear. But at the moment all I see is an attack on what is currently in place and it’s not very productive.
CHRISTINE (ph): No one is trying to attack, Grant (ph), I’m just trying to make sure that it’s well discussed before we take any steps. But your point is well taken and I thank you for that.
GRANT (ph): OK. So can we – where do you want to go with this, Marilyn?
CADE: I had wanted to discuss what the program costs were of each of the options. One, being the task force – whether this task force should define a narrow set of the issues that they thought they should do – whether they should recommend that other task force – another task force be developed, whether there was work that could be done by outside parties that fit into which ever worked, what the pros and cons were of each of the options, whether there is linkage. And in particular I’d like to understand what the task force believes about whether they think there is linkage between the work they’ve already done that is just specific to the standard deletion issue, the development of standard deletion policy and the work they’ve already done.
If they think that that’s a special area or they think that everything about deletions needs to be done in one particular space. That may become a big statement on my part. Let me try it again.
Whether the task force thinks that the recommendation they made about the need for a standard deletions recommendation could be marginalized off and be work that is done by this task force even if all the other work on deletions could be sent off to a separate task force, which ideally would be able to make – have a liaison relationship that could work concurrently.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I don’t know if I -- keep going.
CADE: I’m trying to throw options out.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: No – I understand. No – just keep -- that was not a criticism or anything – keep going.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Can I just add one thing, Marilyn? And that is that I would be very keen to insure that whatever work this task force did we prioritize the conclusion of the work on transfers. And you can perhaps read into my wish there that other work be deferred until transfers as done and dusted because I don’t see that as a big deal.
I think now that we’ve got -- off the plate we can focus on transfers. We’ve had lots of discussion on this. I think all of the background – a lot of the background information and knowledge is already there – it’s just a matter of crystallizing it and concluding it.
And that’s not necessarily a suggestion that deletions or a part of deletions be farmed out to anyone else – but I’m not necessarily saying that the next conclusion to what I just said is that another task force would pick it up and run with it more quickly than we would. But I would see it perhaps not being done in parallel.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: ... Grant (ph), I think it’s – I wouldn’t disagree with that statement. I don’t think that half of us has had the luxury to be able to pick and choose what their assignments are. And it’s my strong – the names council and from the board.
In this case the -- I think it’s crystal clear that we have been assigned three things essentially – that the community issue us transfers for four months or initially at least, the issue of WLS (ph) and the evaluation and the policy around that or the recommendations that go along with that and attendance (INAUDIBLE) also that of deletes.
This could declare to me that the work that we were getting. It wouldn’t have been my preference but these concerns were raised back – were given to us in the first place and not now.
It could have been my preference possibly that we had deferred on (INAUDIBLE) and deletes in order to complete our transfers but we didn’t.
I understand there were plenty of issues – I fully accept that.
But it is – it is greatly disserving me that every single time we get traction around transfers as a team more questions come up about the validity of the (INAUDIBLE). The legitimacy of the work I think is – captured about this.
And my recommendation at this point would be to either A) continue with the work that has been assigned to us in the priority that we see fit or B) simply defer back to the names council for higher instructions because I do not want to waste more time talking about what we should and shouldn’t be doing.
GRANT (ph): Ross (ph), I absolutely agree with you and that’s I guess another way of putting what I am suggesting, which is – my suggestion is we prioritize transfers, we -- the work around deletions with the knowledge that you have just stated. And it is -- takes a lower priority.
If the names council in its wisdom decides that given our chosen priority they wish to reassign the work which they have previously assigned to us then so be it. But I’m talking about priority here – not selecting to do or not do work.
ROSS (ph): Yes. (INAUDIBLE) politician types because they use many symbols to agree with one another.
CADE: Let me see if I can sum up then: I think what we should do is – and, Christine (ph), I am going to ask you to go back to Jeff (ph), please. I had asked him for something in writing. And I think it would be really good – and I would ask that we communicate within the task force and try to come to a recommendation within the task force.
I’m not sure it’s real, real helpful at this point to be – if we could try to come up with a recommendation that accomplishes what I think most of us are keen to do, which is to conclude the work on transfers and then make a recommendation to the names council.
That means we need to come to a conclusion working together largely by e-mail to make a recommendation to the names council about how we see what our work is and what we are going to do and what we feel capable of doing and then leave it to the names council to make a decision.
I think that – and that we need to lay out what the pros and cons are that we see of the options that we give for the names council.
Then we will have fulfilled out responsibility of informing them and leaving the final decision in their hands. CADE: The issue of working within the task force is that we try to communicate with each other about what the options are. And it maybe interesting for the constituency to chose to take a discussion outside before the task force reaches a conclusion. But it’s very hard to get a task force to work together on issues that they have to continue to work together on when there’s a constant effort to import outside opinion before the task force has actually reached an opinion.
GRANT (ph): Was that a question to Christine (ph), Marilyn?
CHRISTINE (ph): That sounds great to me. I’m sorry – I didn’t realize that was a question. Hello?
CADE: So anything else anyone wants to say about this?
Do people understand what I am asking when I ask that you work within the task force?
CHRISTINE (ph): Well, I thought I did until you just asked that so maybe you could clarify.
CADE: The issue of working within the task force is that we try to communicate with each other about what the options are. And it maybe interesting for the constituency to chose to take a discussion outside before the task force reaches a conclusion. But it’s very hard to get a task force to work together on issues that they have to continue to work together on when there’s a constant effort to import outside opinion before the task force has actually reached an opinion.
CHRISTINE (ph): But isn’t each member of the task force a member representing their constituency?
CADE: Of course, they should go back to their constituency or the GA.
CHRISTINE (ph): OK.
CADE: So, Dan (ph), thank you very much for your presentation. And, Rob (ph) and Ross (ph), thank you very much for the work that you and Jeff (ph) have done.
You guys have an aggressive schedule.
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: Not as aggressive as it was last year.
CADE: And I will – again, we will have a transcript so I will only do a summation of the work that we need to put together.
We have a names council meeting on the 29th, which is next Thursday morning I believe.
GRANT (ph): Yes – next Thursday is the 29th.
CADE: OK. So that means on the 28th we can finalize what our recommendation would be to the names council on what we – what the – what the task force believes that our work should be -- our priorities should be.
And that means that we’re going to need to be communicating by e-mail about what the options are, what the pros and cons are and then referring it back to the names council for a conclusion.
GRANT (ph): Marilyn, my staying on the names council on the 29th is merely to ratify the vote for chair.
CADE: You know – you could be right. We may not have a full names council meeting. Let me e-mail Phillip (ph) and ...
GRANT (ph): There is no agenda out yet so ...
CADE: Yes – OK. Let me e-mail Phillip (ph) and ask him that. I thought he was going to put a short agenda out because of the fact the meeting was originally held for two reasons. One so that the names council could also consult on the documents that are out from the working groups – the policy working groups UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I just want to say, folks – Louie (ph) has published his second analysis of the WLS (ph), which is – it’s up on the ICANN Web site. It’s quite interesting.
GRANT (ph): And his conclusion is? It’s an interesting one
UNIDENTIFIED PARTICIPANT: I haven’t got that far yet.
It’s longwinded. His conclusion is longwinded so far.
Marilyn Cade thanked the members of the Task Force for their participation?
NEXT TELECONFERENCE: Tuesday 3 September 2002
___________________________ We welcome your feedback on this transcript. Please go to http://www.emediamillworks.com/feedback/ or call Elizabeth Pennell at 301-731-1728 x138.
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