Re: [ga] Bulk WHOIS Data Issue

[Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>]

Elliot and all assembly members, stakeholders or other interested parties.

Elliot Noss wrote:

> (apologies to all who, like me, are on  this deeeeeeeeep cc list)

  Yes it is deep.  And it is deep for a very good reason.  That being
any future claims of not knowing how other stakeholders stand
on issues cannot be claimed later as being unknown.

>
>
> After seeing a number of these bulk whois posts it has been made clear to me
> what an interesting place Texas is. It appears the only thing one is legally
> entitled to know about someone else is whether they are carrying a GUN, as
> THAT must be clearly diplayed.

  As I indicated from our legal staff's research, there are about 11 US
states and a number of countries to which certain before or previously
mentioned/discussed property and personal privacy issues related
to real property hold true.  Not JUST Texas!  >;)

  BTW, in Texas along with Oklahoma, the right to carry a GUN
with an easy to get permit is widely practiced.  I believe this to be
a good thing as it sometimes acts as a deterrent to some types
of crime, as did the Texas state legislature when that law was
passed and implemented during now President George W. Bush's
governership.  As a result of this fairly new law in Texas and
Oklahoma, crimes against persons such as assault, and Rape
have been significantly reduced every year sense this law
was enacted.

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Williams" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
> To: "Don Brown" <donbrown_l@inetconcepts.net>
> Cc: <ga@dnso.org>; "Don Evans" <DEvans@doc.gov>; "Dan halloran"
> <halloran@icann.org>; "Karen Rose" <krose@ntia.doc.gov>; "kathy smith"
> <ksmith@ntia.doc.gov>; "Nancy J. Victory" <nvictory@ntia.doc.gov>; "Stuart
> Lynn" <lynn@icann.org>; "Steven Wernikoff" <swernikoff@ftc.gov>; "Ted
> Kassinger" <TKassinger@doc.gov>; "Thomas King" <Thomas.King@usdoj.gov>;
> "vint Cerf" <vinton.g.cerf@wcom.com>; "vinton g. cerf - ISOC"
> <vcerf@MCI.NET>; "wendy mcauliffe" <wendy_mcauliffe@zdnet.com>; "Whois"
> <uwho@lists.research.netsol.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [ga] Bulk WHOIS Data Issue
>
> > Don and all assembly members,
> >
> > Don Brown wrote:
> >
> > > O.K.  Let's see.  If you have the license plate number, you can look
> > > up the owner.
> >
> >   Not in Texas unless you are a member of law enforcement and have
> > a need to know, such as a potential traffic violation in progress, ect...
> > Same in California, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri,
> > Georgia, and I believe also Nevada.
> >
> > >  If you have the driver license number, you can look up
> > > the owner.
> >
> >   Again not in Texas or California unless you are a member of law
> > enforcement without the drivers license holders expressed written
> > permission.
> >
> > >  If you have the property address, you can look up the
> > > owner.
> >
> >   Again not true in 11 states, including Texas in some instances...
> >
> > >  I'm not totally sure about SS number, but I wouldn't doubt if
> > > a database is available on the net, as well.  If you have the phone
> > > number, even in some cases where they have not opted in, in TX, you can
> > > look up the owner.
> >
> >   Yes in some states this is true.  In many countries it is not true...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Are we getting bundled up in our socks over the confidentiality of the
> > > Registrant of a domain name?  Really?  Well, let's not.
> >
> >   I respectfully disagree.  I am not interested in again going to court
> > over identity theft like I had to do in 1989.  I am not interested in
> having
> > myself or my daughters stalked due to some "Control Freak" Nut Job
> > looking up on WHOIS my name and finding personal private information
> > listed for me to make such a situation much easier for that "Control
> Freak"
> > Nut Job to do...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is this other information comparable to the available information
> > > about the registrant of a domain name?
> >
> >   No it is not..  (See above again)
> >
> > > Is the Pope Catholic?
> >
> >   No he is Polish.  >;)
> >
> > > Of course
> > > it is!  It is, indeed, the same kind of personal information one would
> > > find about the owner of a license plate, driver license, etc.
> >
> >   Again not correct Don.  See above...  See state statutes for Texas,
> > California, Georgia, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, ect, ect...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > However, my registration of a domain name is one heck of a lot more
> > > trivial than my license plate, driver license, social security number
> > > or the appraised value (yep, that's there, too) of my property.
> >
> >   But neither the license plate, driver license, social security number
> > are as easily accessible as a Whois listing by name or Domain Name.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think some are hunting mosquitos with 00 buck shot rather than
> > > living in the real world. There is no confidentially issue here which
> > > will harelip the Governor, so let's move on.
> >
> >   Well Don you wayyy off base.  Again see above...  <sigh>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Saturday, April 20, 2002, 6:26:27 PM, Cade,Marilyn S - LGA
> <mcade@att.com> wrote:
> > > CMSL> Jeff, do elaborate on the differences on what is listed in a
> "white pages" listing and WHOIS.
> > >
> > > CMSL> In white pages, name, address and telephone number is the typical
> listing. [unless there is an opt out, or situation Jeff described for Texas
> which requires opt in].
> > >
> > > CMSL> What is the difference with WHOIS listings?
> > >
> > > CMSL> -----Original Message-----
> > > CMSL> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com]
> > > CMSL> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 8:25 PM
> > > CMSL> To: Cade,Marilyn S - LGA
> > > CMSL> Cc: ga@dnso.org; Alexander Svensson; Dan Halloran; Louis Touton;
> Mike
> > > CMSL> Palage; Antonio Harris; icann board address
> > > CMSL> Subject: Re: [ga] Bulk WHOIS Data Issue
> > >
> > > CMSL> Marilyn and all assembly members,
> > >
> > > CMSL>   Your of course very welcome Marilyn.  It is very important that
> > > CMSL> accurate information is decimated when making such comments
> > > CMSL> or statements.
> > >
> > > CMSL>   In any event comparisons of a phone # listing and private
> information
> > > CMSL> listed in WHOIS data are not really comparable, and therefore
> making
> > > CMSL> such comparisons is felonious at best.  Same of course is true
> with
> > > CMSL> property ownership listings.  Apples and tomatoes...
> > >
> > > CMSL> Cade,Marilyn S - LGA wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Jeff, thanks for  providing more accurate information about a
> practice in one state at least.  I wasn't aware of that but I am sure that
> residents of Texas appreciate it!  Marilyn
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com]
> > > >> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 3:28 PM
> > > >> To: Cade,Marilyn S - LGA
> > > >> Cc: ga@dnso.org; Alexander Svensson; Dan Halloran; Louis Touton;
> Thomas
> > > >> Roessler; Mike Palage; Antonio Harris
> > > >> Subject: Re: [ga] Bulk WHOIS Data Issue
> > > >>
> > > >> Marilyn and all assembly members,
> > > >>
> > > >> Cade,Marilyn S - LGA wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > For those who want to be "unlisted" in the telephone white pages
> listing in the U.S., they pay a special fee.
> > > >>
> > > >>   This statement is incorrect of course.  Some states, such as Texas
> where
> > > >> I reside the situation is just the opposite.  If you wish your phone
> number
> > > >> to be listed in the white pages than you pay and additional monthly
> charge
> > > >> that will appear on your phone bill every month.  My personal Phone
> > > >> # is NOT listed as I did not opt-in to have it listed.  You may check
> > > >> the Frisco Texas White pages to see for yourself of course.
> > > >>
> > > >> > There is no counterpart that I am aware of in the "yellow pages"
> which is businesses, institutions, organizations, and even individuals who
> advertise, who hold themselves out to communicate with
> > > >> the public through this medium.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > We really don't know at this  point FOR SURE how many registrants
> fit which category.  I strongly suspect that at least 80% of .com; .net;
> .org; .info; .biz are businesses, organizations,
> > > >> institutions, or entities/individuals who are buying names and
> holding them for resale/warehousing.  It is unclear how many registrants are
> "individuals"  in generic TLDs or in ccTLDS [Some ccTLDs
> > > >> don't accept ind. registration/others do].
> > > >> >
> > > >> > In any case, an analysis, even rough, of this breakdown would be
> useful information, even if estimated.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The WHOIS TF co-chairs have asked the registrar/registry
> constituency representatives in the TF how they might provide even roughly
> responsive answers/statistics. This is a work in progress. Do
> > > >> not read into this request that the registries and registrars have
> agreed to any kind of analysis, only that that the request has been made
> inside the TF.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Any analysis, or statistics would be greatly appreciated by the
> WHOIS TF as a more than useful data point... (s).
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: William X Walsh [mailto:william@wxsoft.info]
> > > >> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 6:29 AM
> > > >> > To: William S. Lovell
> > > >> > Cc: ga@dnso.org
> > > >> > Subject: Re: [ga] Bulk Whois Data Issue
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Wednesday, Wednesday, April 17, 2002, 9:10:37 PM, William S. Lovell
> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Absurdity reaches new heights.  One can also keep one's name out
> of the
> > > >> > > phone book by not having a phone, or out of the Motor Vehicle
> Department's
> > > >> > > lists by having neither a driver's license nor a car. But both of
> those
> > > >> > > entities
> > > >> > > have procedures for protecting their user's privacy. The
> Internet, or indeed
> > > >> > > a domain name, are rapidly becoming necessary parts of doing
> business, and
> > > >> > > indeed a healthy means for self expression by private citizens.
> To
> > > >> > > suggest that
> > > >> > > one must necessarily give away all rights of privacy just because
> some
> > > >> > > registrar
> > > >> > > sees yet one more way to squeeze out a buck is unconscionable.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Just as there are examples supporting your view, there are better
> > > >> > ones supporting the opposite view.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > In the US, every state makes property ownership information
> available
> > > >> > as a matter of public record.  They are required by statute to
> provide
> > > >> > that information in bulk format for a fee, and there are companies
> out
> > > >> > there who specialize in providing that data in a searchable and
> > > >> > downloadable database format.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > You cannot own property without having it listed publicly.  If you
> > > >> > want to own it and protect your privacy, it is entirely up to you
> to
> > > >> > do what is necessary to do that, by forming a shell company for
> > > >> > instance.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Access to those databases are not expensive at all, as a matter of
> > > >> > fact.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > When you own property, people have the right to be able to get that
> > > >> > information.  The same with a domain name, which is the internet
> form
> > > >> > of "property."
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > Best regards,
> > > >> > William X Walsh <william@wxsoft.info>
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > Save Internet Radio!
> > > >> > CARP will kill Webcasting!
> > > >> > http://www.saveinternetradio.org/
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > This message was passed to you via the ga@dnso.org list.
> > > >> > Send mail to majordomo@dnso.org to unsubscribe
> > > >> > ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
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> > > >> >
> > > >> > --
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> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> --
> > > >> Jeffrey A. Williams
> > > >> Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 121k members/stakeholdes strong!)
> > > >> CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
> > > >> Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> > > >> E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
> > > >> Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
> > > >> Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > >
> > > CMSL> Regards,
> > > CMSL> --
> > > CMSL> Jeffrey A. Williams
> > > CMSL> Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 121k members/stakeholdes strong!)
> > > CMSL> CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
> > > CMSL> Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> > > CMSL> E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
> > > CMSL> Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
> > > CMSL> Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > >
> > > CMSL> --
> > > CMSL> This message was passed to you via the ga@dnso.org list.
> > > CMSL> Send mail to majordomo@dnso.org to unsubscribe
> > > CMSL> ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> > > CMSL> Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> > >
> > > ----
> > > Don Brown - Dallas, Texas USA     Internet Concepts, Inc.
> > > donbrown_l@inetconcepts.net         http://www.inetconcepts.net
> > > PGP Key ID: 04C99A55              (972) 788-2364  Fax: (972) 788-5049
> > > Providing Internet Solutions Worldwide - An eDataWeb Affiliate
> > > ----
> > >
> > > --
> > > This message was passed to you via the ga@dnso.org list.
> > > Send mail to majordomo@dnso.org to unsubscribe
> > > ("unsubscribe ga" in the body of the message).
> > > Archives at http://www.dnso.org/archives.html
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > --
> > Jeffrey A. Williams
> > Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 121k members/stakeholdes strong!)
> > CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
> > Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> > E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
> > Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
> > Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> >
> >

Regards,
--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 121k members/stakeholdes strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208


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